perm filename FOO[1,JMC]34 blob
sn#875392 filedate 1989-07-16 generic text, type T, neo UTF8
From polya!shelby!rutgers!gatech!utkcs2!ke Sun Jul 16 12:10:00 PDT 1989
Article 19925 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!gatech!utkcs2!ke
>From: ke@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu (min ke)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Love
Message-ID: <976@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu>
Date: 2 Jul 89 14:43:21 GMT
Reply-To: ke@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu (min ke)
Organization: CS Dept, University of TN, Knoxville
Lines: 44
------------------------------------------------------------------
How To Love Our Country
------------------------------------------------------------------
We Chinese love our country. But what is our country, many
people are not clear about it and some people try to make it
unclear. The country is composed of three components: The land,
( mountains, rivers, lakes and so on); the people (including Han
and many other minorities ); and the government(s).
We love our motherland without conditions, because it is the
place where our ancesters lived, died and buried, because it is
the place where our history and memory rooted, because it is the
place where our nation formed and our culture developed.
We love our people without conditions, because we are nurtured
by our people, because they are our fathers, mothers, brothers
and sisters.
We would have to love our government, if the government is of
the people, by the people and for the people, if the government is
supervised by the people, if the government offcials are elected by
the people, if the government officals are good servants to the
people, if ... There are many conditions for us to love our
government.
Question:
Are Deng Xiaoping, Li Peng and Yang Shangkun good servants?
Conclusion:
If you love our country you should fight for the basic human
right of our people.
People, the masters of our country, should have the freedom
of speech, should have the right to select their servants.
Min Ke July 2, 1989
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From polya!shelby!rutgers!gatech!utkcs2!ke Sun Jul 16 12:12:52 PDT 1989
Article 19925 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!gatech!utkcs2!ke
>From: ke@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu (min ke)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Love
Message-ID: <976@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu>
Date: 2 Jul 89 14:43:21 GMT
Reply-To: ke@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu (min ke)
Organization: CS Dept, University of TN, Knoxville
Lines: 44
------------------------------------------------------------------
How To Love Our Country
------------------------------------------------------------------
We Chinese love our country. But what is our country, many
people are not clear about it and some people try to make it
unclear. The country is composed of three components: The land,
( mountains, rivers, lakes and so on); the people (including Han
and many other minorities ); and the government(s).
We love our motherland without conditions, because it is the
place where our ancesters lived, died and buried, because it is
the place where our history and memory rooted, because it is the
place where our nation formed and our culture developed.
We love our people without conditions, because we are nurtured
by our people, because they are our fathers, mothers, brothers
and sisters.
We would have to love our government, if the government is of
the people, by the people and for the people, if the government is
supervised by the people, if the government offcials are elected by
the people, if the government officals are good servants to the
people, if ... There are many conditions for us to love our
government.
Question:
Are Deng Xiaoping, Li Peng and Yang Shangkun good servants?
Conclusion:
If you love our country you should fight for the basic human
right of our people.
People, the masters of our country, should have the freedom
of speech, should have the right to select their servants.
Min Ke July 2, 1989
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!PINE.CIRCA.UFL.EDU!daili Sun Jul 16 12:14:21 PDT 1989
Article 19927 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!PINE.CIRCA.UFL.EDU!daili
>From: daili@PINE.CIRCA.UFL.EDU ("DAI")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: RE : ** READ -- IMPORTANT NOTICE **
Message-ID: <8907021647.AA04832@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 2 Jul 89 16:32:00 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 48
======================================================================
I'm posting the following email message. I don't know the Freedom of
Info ACT. actually each state should has its own law to deal with
that kind of thing. In Florida, there is another law called "sunshine
law", at that case, if chinese government officers ask the info on
chinese students, the school has right to provide it. please don't
ask me the content of 'sunshine law', i don't know either.
------------------- original message -------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson
Cc:
I just read your article concerning the request by the PRC government
for info on Chinese students from a univ. in Fla, and that this may
be available under the Freedom of Info Act. As I understand it, this
act, as with most of U.S. law, is built for use by U.S. citizens;
just as our Bill of Rights doesn't apply to foreign nationals :-(,
I suspect that foreign nationals could not press for info using the
Freedom of Info Act :-). If the CCP has local informants though, they
might be able to do this, especially if the informant was a U.S.
citizen :-( :-( :-( :-(.
I am not sure of how the law applies to resident aliens. Actually,
since I am not a lawyer, I am not *really* sure how any laws apply
to anyone (!). So talk with a lawyer before doing anything immportant
with what I say; I may be wrong.
I apologize if this response is to an old article. I cannot tell the
date of when articles were posted, and I think I might be as much as
a week behind in my reading.
Also, if you wish, you may post this entire e-letter. The only reason
I did not post it myself is that I have had problems posting news in the
past, and wanted to make sure this got through. Also it might be better
if the CCP does not get the idea of recruiting U.S. citizens as informants.
Though they would have very little success at this, no success at all for
them is better. So you may want to edit this idea out before posting.
Wishing china a brighter future,
Bill Yakowenko.
--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==-
Bill Yakowenko "Too much reality can kill you."
.......
======================================================================
From polya!shelby!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!eecae!cps3xx!usenet Sun Jul 16 12:18:52 PDT 1989
Article 19932 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!eecae!cps3xx!usenet
>From: usenet@cps3xx.UUCP (Usenet file owner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Li Peng admitted shooting at crowd
Message-ID: <3626@cps3xx.UUCP>
Date: 2 Jul 89 15:35:17 GMT
References: <4207@merlin.usc.edu> <6373@columbia.edu> <1046@nih-csl.UUCP>
Reply-To: mailc@frith.UUCP ( dumm user for Case mail)
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 15
According to CNN this morning(7-2-89), Li Peng met with Mr. Wong, an
American, yesterday. Mr Wong asked Li Peng why he ordered to shoot at
crowed rather than using the ordinary crowd control weapens. Li Peng
replied that he did not have rubber bullets at all and he did not have
enough tear gas to to deal with thousands and thousands of people.
Thus Li Peng admitted that:
1. troops did shoot at crowd with live bullets simply because they had
no rubber bullets and no enough tear gas.
2. People participated were not "a small number" but more than that his
tear gas could handle.
sy
From polya!shelby!rutgers!njin!princeton!phoenix!pucc!6098966 Sun Jul 16 12:19:38 PDT 1989
Article 19933 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!njin!princeton!phoenix!pucc!6098966
>From: 6098966@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Lusheng Yan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Ted Koppel's TAMS Report
Message-ID: <8822@pucc.Princeton.EDU>
Date: 2 Jul 89 18:21:57 GMT
References: <8906291205.AA25044@jade.berkeley.edu> <-288079992@hpcupt1.HP.COM>
Reply-To: 6098966@pucc.Princeton.EDU
Distribution: usa
Organization: Princeton University, NJ
Lines: 21
Disclaimer: Author bears full responsibility for contents of this article
In article <-288079992@hpcupt1.HP.COM>, schi@hpcupt1.HP.COM (Shan Chi) writes:
>
>Does anyone have any idea's on why ABC presented the situation as if TAMS was
>largely the student's fault. Was it a case of poor production or a media
>white-wash of events in China?
It appeared on the video tape that the civilians were violent, but he did
mention that there were no students involved in killing the soldiers, and
where and when most killing occurred. I think ABC just does not have
first-hand video tapes to proove the massacre. It was said that Koppel
was sick in Beijing. Because both he and NBC's Brokaw went Beijing after
the massacre, which was basically Ma(3) hou(4) pao(4), most people doubted
that they would have anything new on the air. I guess that
they were having a lot of pressure.
After all Brokaw got the interview with Yuan Mu, and Koppel had to have
something worth the trip. Without those tapes demonstrating the massacre
to his boss, he just focused on the other part of the story and put together
the all-known stories. Therefore, I intend to believe this was just
a poor-quality program.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!husc6!yale!jiang Sun Jul 16 12:20:38 PDT 1989
Article 19935 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!husc6!yale!jiang
>From: jiang@venus.ycc.yale.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Li Peng admitted shooting at crowd
Message-ID: <65311@yale-celray.yale.UUCP>
Date: 2 Jul 89 20:16:58 GMT
Sender: root@yale.UUCP
Distribution: usa
Organization: Yale Computer Center, New Haven, Connecticut, USA
Lines: 20
In article <3626@cps3xx.UUCP>, usenet@cps3xx.UUCP (Usenet file owner) writes...
>According to CNN this morning(7-2-89), Li Peng met with Mr. Wong, an
>American, yesterday. Mr Wong asked Li Peng why he ordered to shoot at
>crowed rather than using the ordinary crowd control weapens. Li Peng
>replied that he did not have rubber bullets at all and he did not have
>enough tear gas to to deal with thousands and thousands of people.
>
>Thus Li Peng admitted that:
>
>1. troops did shoot at crowd with live bullets simply because they had
>no rubber bullets and no enough tear gas.
>
>2. People participated were not "a small number" but more than that his
>tear gas could handle.
>
>sy
Is Li Peng really that stupid to have said that?
Jiang
From polya!lin Sun Jul 16 12:21:34 PDT 1989
Article 19937 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!lin
>From: lin@polya.Stanford.EDU (Fangzhen Lin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Ted Koppel's TAMS Report
Message-ID: <10378@polya.Stanford.EDU>
Date: 2 Jul 89 22:12:49 GMT
References: <8906291205.AA25044@jade.berkeley.edu> <-288079992@hpcupt1.HP.COM> <8822@pucc.Princeton.EDU>
Reply-To: lin@polya.Stanford.EDU (Fangzhen Lin)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Stanford University
Lines: 16
In article <8822@pucc.Princeton.EDU> 6098966@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes:
>After all Brokaw got the interview with Yuan Mu, and Koppel had to have
>something worth the trip. Without those tapes demonstrating the massacre
>to his boss, he just focused on the other part of the story and put together
>the all-known stories. Therefore, I intend to believe this was just
>a poor-quality program.
According to ABC, the major *purpose* of Ted Koppel's trip to China
was to finish his special report. I personally found that Koppel's
report was good. I guess Ted Koppel wanted to make some concluding
remarks at the end of the report, but was unable to do that because
he was sick. I wish him well!
Fangzhen Lin
From polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!me!philip Sun Jul 16 12:22:12 PDT 1989
Article 19938 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!me!philip
>From: philip@me.utoronto.ca (Philip Cheng AWN)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: A_joke
Message-ID: <89Jul2.170118edt.18657@me.utoronto.ca>
Date: 2 Jul 89 21:01:06 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto Mechanical Engineering
Lines: 9
I just heard a joke that I would like to share with you:
Three Chinese men were sent to a jail. They started to tell each other
the reasons why they were put in jail. The first man said: " They put me
here because I supported Deng Xiaoping". The second man said :" They put
me here because I was against Deng Xiaoping". The third man stood
up and said :" They put me here because I am Deng Xiaoping".
Don't laugh! This may be a true story some day.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!husc6!cmcl2!linli Sun Jul 16 12:24:00 PDT 1989
Article 19943 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!husc6!cmcl2!linli
>From: linli@cmcl2.NYU.EDU (xiaolin li)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: How Had PLA Sodiers Died.
Keywords: The majority of dead PLA sodiers were shot by their comrades.
Message-ID: <40742@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>
Date: 2 Jul 89 23:43:58 GMT
Organization: New York University
Lines: 58
This is about news and analysis.
News and question:
Both Yuan Mu and Chen Xitong have put large number of PLA sodier
calsualties in TAM Square massacre . Yuan Mu put it as more than
100 died and 5000 wounded. Chen Xitong put it as 50 sodiers died
and more than 6000 wounded. However eyewitness and people have said that
only less than 12 sodiers were killed by angery Beijing citizens
after they had indiscriminately shot innocent people. How to cop
with such a big gap between government and eyewitness? We have
the following analysis.
New News:
According to both China Daily News (Hua Qiao Ri Bao) and World Journal
(Shi Jie Ri Bao), news sources from Beijing said that the Beijing
millitary leaders are reviewing the "losses and gain" in the 6/4
massacre. The Department of War in the PLA think that although the
action has achieved a "great victory", it also revealed the weakness
of the millitary ability to cop with emergencies. They had several
aspect of the analysis (interested people should read the newspaper).
The most crucial part is the following.
Before the fully armed troops entered TAM Square, tens of thousands
plain cloth sodiers had entered Beijing earlier. They were mixed in
the crowd in order to help cracking down the pro-democracy students
and workers. Many of them were shot by their comrades who did not
recognize them. Also the Beijing policemen were not informed
the action. Many of them (in plain cloth) were shot too.
Analysis:
Those plain cloth sodiers and policemen must be in the places where
tension were high such as Muxidi and west Changan Ave. Because
it was their task to help those armed sodiers and to identify those
"hooligans". Therefore the crowd to block sodier trucks, APC and tanks
must contain a large percentage of such plain cloth sodiers and
policemen. By the time the armed sodiers opened fire, they had no
choice but to die or to be wounded.
I also remember there was report during 6/3-6/5 that some people
eyewitnessed some dead people were put on sodier's uniform. At that
time people thought it was government's trick to increase the number
of calsualties of PLA while decrease the death toll of students
and Beijing citizens. This could also be explained that those deads
were real sidiers but with plain cloth when they were in TAM Square.
Conclusion:
If there were indeed 50-100 dead and about 5000 wounded for the
PLA sodiers, only less than 12 were killed by angery Beijing
civillians. The overwhelming majority of them were shot by their
comrades with guns.
Too bad they didn't even know how they died. They were
only tools of the Deng-Li-Yang regime.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!husc6!cmcl2!linli Sun Jul 16 12:25:01 PDT 1989
Article 19944 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!husc6!cmcl2!linli
>From: linli@cmcl2.NYU.EDU (xiaolin li)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Government Compensates PLA "Martyrs" In TAM Massacre.
Keywords: Money is more than those died in Sino-Vietnam War.
Message-ID: <40743@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>
Date: 2 Jul 89 23:58:16 GMT
Organization: New York University
Lines: 9
According to China Daily News (Hua Qiao Ri Bao), the government
compensation for PLA sodiers who died in TAM Massacre is $10,000
RMB. Those wounded will receive $5,000 to $7,000 RMB differ in each
case.
Comparison: Those who died in Sino-Vietnam war received only
$2,000 RMB.
Analysis: The increment is certainly much more than inflation.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!purdue!gatech!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watmath!watdragon!tiger!hmrchan Sun Jul 16 12:25:44 PDT 1989
Article 19945 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!purdue!gatech!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watmath!watdragon!tiger!hmrchan
>From: hmrchan@tiger.waterloo.edu (Ricky Chan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Press Freedom Herald
Message-ID: <14843@watdragon.waterloo.edu>
Date: 2 Jul 89 14:34:46 GMT
Sender: daemon@watdragon.waterloo.edu
Reply-To: hmrchan@tiger.waterloo.edu (Ricky Chan)
Organization: U. of Waterloo, Ontario
Lines: 51
An article on Press Freedom Herald (PFH is published in Chinese)
===================================================================
The Press Freedom Herald, founded on June 9, is organized by the
China Overseas Journalists Association based in University of
California.
This four-page newspaper is published weekly with a three-fold aim:
1. To break the news blockade in China;
2. To offer a ground for discussions about the political changes
in China;
3. To publish news from North American pro-democracy organizations.
Since the democracy movement, which is far from approaching its end, has
just begun, we sincerely ask your support by subscribing to this
newspaper.
To subscribe, please send your bank draft of $60 to:
318 N 3rd ST. #A
ALHAMBRA, CA 91801
USA
TEL: 818-281-4343
818-458-5557
FAX: 818-576-7837
818-281-4343
The subscription fee is US$10 for about 4 issues per month, the press
will take care of the postage fee. Part of the subscription fee is for
sponsoring purposes (for detail please direct your inquiry to PFH).
The Action Committee For Human Rights And Democracy In China in the
University of Waterloo is the sole distributor for Press Freedom
Herald to the universities across Canada, except those in
British Columbia and Quebec.
Please send us your mailing address so that we can send you some copies
of the the second issue of the Press Freedom Herald.
Note: This offer is limited to the CSSA's in Canada.
Each CSSA should only ask one representative to contact us.
This offer is FREE.
Other people who are also interested are also welcome, but
we don't guarantee that you would be able to get one.
Ricky Chan e-mail: hmrchan@tiger.waterloo.edu
Terence Kwan e-mail: nctkwan@watdragon.waterloo.edu
[ Action Committee For Human Rights & Democracy In China ]
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ANDREW.CMU.EDU!ls2r+ Sun Jul 16 12:28:19 PDT 1989
Article 19952 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ANDREW.CMU.EDU!ls2r+
>From: ls2r+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Lui Sieh)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: A Suggestion for Efficiency
Message-ID: <MYfhUHy00XoZ41knsX@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 03:05:55 GMT
References: <4827@oregon.uoregon.edu>
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Reply-To: ls2r+prc@andrew.cmu.edu
Organization: Zhongguo-request+@andrew.cmu.edu
Lines: 45
In article <4827@oregon.uoregon.edu> dated 30-Jun-89,
howardl@oregon.uoregon.edu writes some interesting ways of making the
"movement" efficient.
My disclaimer is that this isn't anything personal and please don't feel
bad about my comments.
My comment though is that whatever activities schools and members of the
various organizations do, the *primary* purpose is to reach *Chinese*
students. *Not* Americans. *Only* Chinese students can do this. The
rest of the people are for secondary support and the attention should
not be focused on them.
I'm not saying that the American public (or any country's public)
shouldn't be made aware of the situation. Instead, what my emphasis is
that the movement should draw its strength on the activities of Chinese
students in all the campuses. They should remain active and continue to
give support by giving whatever is necessary.
This is and should be I believe the goal and concern of any leaders on
the campuses. As I was reminded very recently this is the Chinese
people's fight and the core supporters must be made up of Chinese.
Eventually, the fight is going to have to be taken back into China in a
secretive way. I hope that no one truly believes that changes can be
made in China from America. It's just not possible.
Hopefully, the efforts here, can be "transferred" in some way back into
China to begin the real fight but now, people can meet and know who can
be counted on and who can be trusted. The beginnings of the
revolutionary movement begins here but will start in China.
And, in a side note, that's how quite a number of revolutions have
started. The most recent was the Ayatollah Khomeni and Iran. He
started in France and transferred it into Iran at the opportune time.
----- Lui
"We should all be concerned about the future because we will have to
spend the rest of our lives there." ----- Charles F. Kettering
ARPA: ls2r+prc@andrew.cmu.edu BITNET: ls2r%andrew@cmccvb
UUCP: ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!ls2r+
These words may or may not be the real opinions of the author.
From polya!shelby!decwrl!purdue!ames!apple!lai Sun Jul 16 12:29:30 PDT 1989
Article 19954 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!purdue!ames!apple!lai
>From: lai@Apple.COM (Ed Lai)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Don't be too pessimistic!!!
Message-ID: <32832@apple.Apple.COM>
Date: 3 Jul 89 04:02:47 GMT
References: <32743@apple.Apple.COM> <367@ai.cs.utexas.edu> <4783@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> <667@gamera.cs.utexas.edu> <4787@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> <670@thunderbird.cs.utexas.edu> <4798@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> <678@valverde.cs.utexas.edu> <25950@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA
Lines: 26
In article <25950@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> matloff@heather.ucdavis.edu (Norm Matloff) writes:
>>The notion of "new CCP" was in Ed Lai's posting where he used
>>two of your paragraphs to show how you are leneint toward CCP
>>and harsh on KMT.
>
>The paragraph of mine which Ed quoted was not lenient at all. It
>only said that the government is even more repressive today than
>it was 2 months ago. As I recall, Ed himself agreed that this was
>a true statement. Really, Xiang-Seng, how is a statement which
>says that the CCP leadership has gotten even worse than before
>qualify as leniency toward CCP?????
>
>
Since I am being quoted, I need to clarify this even though I am tired of all
this. Norm did say that CCP is more repressive than 2 months ago, but that
was not my point. My point was that Norm is very tolerant of the CCP, especially
that of two months ago, but at the same time very harsh toward the KMT, in a
way that is completely inconsistent and show that he is highly biased.
/* Disclaimer: All statments and opinions expressed are my own */
/* Edmund K. Lai */
/* Apple Computer, MS65-B */
/* 20525 Mariani Ave, */
/* Cupertino, CA 95014 */
/* (408)974-6272 */
From polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!purdue!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!pur-ee!songj Sun Jul 16 12:29:54 PDT 1989
Article 19955 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!purdue!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!pur-ee!songj
>From: songj@pur-ee.UUCP (Jisheng Song)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Government Compensates PLA "Martyrs" In TAM Massacre.
Summary: Economic sanction will not hurt ordinary people
Message-ID: <12100@pur-ee.UUCP>
Date: 3 Jul 89 04:24:41 GMT
References: <40743@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>
Reply-To: songj@pur-ee.UUCP (Jisheng Song)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Lines: 17
In article <40743@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> linli@cmcl2.NYU.EDU (xiaolin li) writes:
>According to China Daily News (Hua Qiao Ri Bao), the government
>compensation for PLA sodiers who died in TAM Massacre is $10,000
>RMB. Those wounded will receive $5,000 to $7,000 RMB differ in each
>case.
>
It has been predicted that foreign loans would be used to award those
who helped Deng to crush pro-democracy finghters in China. It is imaginable
that those high ranking PLA officiers who responded to Deng's call to
kill students will get rewarded much more.
Many people, including Fang Lizhi and Liu Binyian, said many many times
that foreign aids to China only benefited corrupted officials of the
Chinese government. Execuses like hurting ordinary people to oppose economic
sanction are absurd in the case of China.
___
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!apple!well!crunch Sun Jul 16 12:31:18 PDT 1989
Article 19959 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!apple!well!crunch
>From: crunch@well.UUCP (John Draper)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Video Conferencing Queries
Message-ID: <12523@well.UUCP>
Date: 2 Jul 89 22:44:20 GMT
Reply-To: crunch@well.UUCP (John Draper)
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link, Sausalito, CA
Lines: 20
Last night, I posted some info explaining the new Video Conferencing
technology, and some dates were given. I just want to make things
clear that these dates are tentitive. Craig was only mentioning
these dates because these dates are when the Video Conferencing facilities
in those cities are available.
Video Conferencing facilities are in high demand, so Craig contacted
them to establish when these facilities would be available in ALL the
cities involved, and took the time to talk with US Sprint about using
them for the Pro_democracy cause.
For those interested in participating in a Video conference, please also
include your voice phone number and FAX (if you have one), so Craig can
FAX you the information on pricing. Please send ALL Email inqueries
to: uunet!acad!well!crunch or uunet!hoptoad!well!crunch.
John Draper
Programmers Network.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!ukma!psuvm.bitnet!ncsuvm.bitnet!netoprjw Sun Jul 16 12:35:28 PDT 1989
Article 19960 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!ukma!psuvm.bitnet!ncsuvm.bitnet!netoprjw
>From: NETOPRJW@NCSUVM.BITNET
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Changing the lifestyle--Our own revolution
Message-ID: <817NETOPRJW@NCSUVM>
Date: 2 Jul 89 20:34:12 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University - Computing Center
Lines: 42
July 1, the CCP reopen the TAM square. Thousands of bicycle passed
by, although the people looked depressed, but they showed that they were
different from what they were thirteen years ago.
Bloodshed spilled in apirl, 1976. After that incident, there were not
much people to be arrested, because the CCP already killed almost all of the
dissidents by that time. This time, there are so many resistence inside the
country that the CCP leader still face some strong challenges from the poor
and middle class. Deng try to pull back the history, it does not work, and it
won't work anyway.
After the massacre, the general people still have to go on with their
life, they still have to make a living. Most of our country men and women do
not have any place to do. They have to stay in China and make that country
as strong as possible. This has nothing to do with politics, for their own sake
, they have to do it.
So, all they can do is to change their lifestyle, to be independant of
the CCP government. In the next six monthes, any confrontation with CCP will
bring more blood and turmoil into street. We should recognize that we were not
well prepared for the huge democratic movement two months ago, so nobody can
really control the situation later on. Now the democrtic movement has change
its level and extent, it is not a student movement anymore.
Instead of asking the people in China "stand up", why don't we go ahead
to import some "capitalism spiritual pollution"? I believe the CCP leader will
afraid of this more than some open letters. Deng try to make it that killing is
killing, business is business, then we can comply him. We can open more joint
ventures of entertament and fast food, we can import the way we enjoy the west
world. I believe, we do not have to wait until Deng die to start our revolution
, we start it while now, in our lifestyle.
We may not kill them by gun, but we can kill them inside, we can kill
them by making the inside structure collasp. No matter how many solders Deng
sends, he has no way to kill a lifestyle. Also, the one of the problems in
China while now is that many people still live in the old style, they have
strong desire to destroy anything different. If we can change them, we can say
we make a final victory.
Jeff Wang
North Carolina State University
From polya!shelby!labrea!cdp!caulkins Sun Jul 16 12:37:41 PDT 1989
Article 19962 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!labrea!cdp!caulkins
>From: caulkins@cdp.UUCP
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: TAM Letters to China
Message-ID: <249500062@cdp>
Date: 3 Jul 89 11:47:32 GMT
Lines: 27
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:249500062:000:1104
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!caulkins Jul 2 17:57:00 1989
The North California Association for Democracy of China (NCADC)
is running an interesting (and I think effective) letter
campaign to break the official PRC news blackout about the
Beijing massacre. They ask US residents to send massacre news
clippings (Chinese language text and photos) to a list of
Chinese organizations (NOT individuals) in every part of China;
they have 6,000 addresses. They supply originals of the
clippings and addresses; participants make copies of the
clippings and send them to as many of the addresses as
possible.
They recommend use of Safe Guard envelopes (the inside of the
envelope is printed with an opaque pattern so the envelope
contents cannot be read from the outside) and business-type
return addresses (Acme Import/Export Company, or something
similar).
With many different kinds of letters and envelopes coming from
many parts of the USA it is unlikely that PRC agents will be
able to identify or intercept a significant percentage of
them.
For more information write to:
The North California Association for Democracy of China, PO Box
6170, Moraga, CA 94570
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!hkucs.UUCP!kwchan Sun Jul 16 12:38:28 PDT 1989
Article 19964 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!hkucs.UUCP!kwchan
>From: kwchan@hkucs.UUCP (Chan Ki Wa)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: China & HK News
Message-ID: <8907032358.AA27852@hkucs.HKU.HK>
Date: 3 Jul 89 23:58:33 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 318
Source : South China Morning Post
Date : 3rd July 89
Send time : 4:00 pm HKT
Sender : hkucs!kwchan@uunet.uu.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------
[South China Morning Post, Monday, July 3, 1989]
SHORTAGE OF RIOT GEAR CAUSED USE OF TANKS, GUNS
Chinese Prime Minister Li Peng claimed troops had to use tanks and to
shoot pro-democracy protesters in Beijing because security forces had
insufficient tear gas and no rubber bullets or water cannon.
Mr Li had insisted the soldiers "did not want any bloodshed, they wanted
peace, they knew the students' intentions were good", according to Mr
Daniel Wong, a Chinese American local government official from California,
who met government leaders in the Chinese capital.
Mr Li said that faced with a deteriorating situation, with people stealing
weapons, soldiers being beaten up and some killed, the security forces had
to take action against "bad people mixed up with the good".
Bitterly attacked abroad for ordering the crackdown, Mr Li said the
protests on Tiananmen Square were the first of their kind in 40 years of
communist rule.
"We were not prepared."
Mr Wong quoted him as saying that when the security forces tried some of
their small supply of tear gas, it was ineffective.
Mr Li had said the army had no rubber bullets and that there was no
hydrant around Tiananmen Square with enough pressure for water cannons.
"Our police force is not trained for riots like in some other countries,"
Mr Li was quoted as saying, citing South Korea and the United States as
examples.
Chinese authorities now admit more than 200 civilians including 36
students were killed in the operation launched by troops and police, backed
up with troops and armoured personnel carriers.
Foreign estimates of civilian deaths, based on eye-witness accounts and
diplomats' reports, vary from many hundreds to several thousand.
China has launched a nationwide dragnet for student leaders, who are
accused of plotting a counter-revolutionary rebellion.
But Mr Li vowed the Government would not pursue ordinary students who took
part in more than six weeks of unrest.
The People's Daily quoted him as saying" :Although we do not praise their
methods - demonstrations, sit-ins and hunger strikes - we will take a
lenient attitude toward them, provided they did not break the criminal
law."
According to the report, Mr Li said the 36 students officially listed as
killed in the crackdown died after ignoring repeated public warnings and
advice from their parents and colleges and going to places "where riots
took place".
Mr Wong, a former mayor of Cerritos, California, said MR Li had insisted
that the authorities showed great patience with the demonstrators, putting
up with the Tiananmen protests for 48 days before cracking down.
"No other country in the world had that kind of demonstration would have
tolerated it for so long." he quoted Mr Li as saying.
Mr Wong said the Premier had acknowledged a serious problem of official
corruption in China, one of the demonstrators' main complaints, but blamed
this party on leniency shown towards offenders by Mr Zhao Ziyang, the
69-year-old reformist party chief ousted last week.
China's leadership, in introspective mood after the recent political
crisis, continued on a path of limited "self-criticism".
The People's Daily quoted Mr Wan Li, chairman of the National People's
Congress, as saying that the situation in China was complicated and the
country lacked experience.
"There are errors in out work and things that anger the public, such as
unequal economic growth and income distribution, slackness in the party,
producing corruption," he told a visiting Guyanese delegation.
Mr Wan's comments reflect a softer tone in official propaganda, now that
the leadership is confident of its military control of the capital and
wants to heal the woulds of the people.
Mr Zhao's successor, Mr Jiang Zemin, also acknowledged party shortcomings
in a speech reported yesterday by the New China News Agency.
He said party organisations at various levels and the vast majority of
party members had stood up well to the recent crisis.
But the struggle had also revealed many problems in party organisations
and among party members, and some were serious.
Mr Jiang said Mr Zhao's neglect of party building had brought about very
grave results, weakening the party's strength.
The new leadership would concentrate on strengthening ideological work.
Another priority would be to combat corruption.
- Reuter
-----------------------------------------------------
Crying, is our motherland!
Crying, are our mothers, our brother and sisters!
Crying, our students and scholars in alien countries!
Where is the hope of our nation!
-----------------------------------------------------
[South China Morning Post, Monday, July 3, 1989]
FOREIGN SECRETARY AGREES TO MEET PROTEST LEADERS
[By Simon Macklin, Chris Yeung, and David Wallen]
British Foreign Secreatary, Sir Geoffrey Howe, last night agreed to meet
leaders of demonstrations staged for his arrival in the territory yesterday.
Foreign Office officials are making arrangements for Sir Geoffrey to meet
the representatives of protest marches on both sides of the harbour after
he had earlier refused to accept a petition from one of the groups.
"He wants to meet people, that is precisely why he is in Hongkong. He
will meet the leaders of whatever demonstrations there may be during the
course of his visit," one Foreign Office official said.
Sir Geoffrey would also be taking the opportunity to hold an informal
"walk about" in Causeway Bay this afternoon.
The official said Sir Geoffrey had not intended to snub protesters by not
accepting a petition they offered on his arrival Kai Tak airport, or by not
accepting an invitation to join a rally in Victoria Park.
Sir Geoffrey had been told to expect demonstrations on his arrival but had
anticipated far larger crowds than he saw demonstrating in the streets
yesterday, the official said.
Organisers of the march from Mongkok to the airport and from Victoria Park
to Chater Garden had forecast a turnout by up to 200,000 people.
However, about 10,000 lined the route taken by Sir Geoffrey's motorcade
from the airport and about 5,000 marched from Victoria Park, although the
organisers claimed up to 50,000 were involved at various stages of the
rally.
Sir Geoffrey read a prepared statement at the airport, in which he said he
was here to listen to people's views as well as to explain the British
Government's position.
However, when he refused to anwser a barrage of questions from more than
100 local and overseas journalists, he was booed by a group of mainly
American newsmen.
Sir Geoffrey would be making no major announcements during his three days
in Hongkong, and official said.
"There will be no major surprises during the visit. The Prime Minister
has said there will be announcements as soon as possible, but they will be
made in London, not here," he said.
One of the leaders of the protest groups, Father Lousi Ha Keloon, said an
invitation to Sir Geoffrey's private talks had not yet been received.
He said he saw the conciliatory move not as a sign of victory but the
gesture would be appreciated.
Leaders of the Hongkong People Saving Hongkong Campaign claimed they had
been snubbed when Sir Geoffrey would not accept a 600,000-signature
petition.
Instead the letter, asking for a meeting with him and Prime Minister
Margaret Thatcher during a visit to London next week, was directed to Sir
Geoffrey's personal secretary.
Another protest leader, the Reverend Lo Lung-kwong, said he was angered by
Sir Geoffrey's attitude.
"We feel extremely dissatisfied that the opinions of Hongkong people have
been insulted. He simply does not have the courage to face Hongkong
people. He just wants to stick to a small group of people.
"He just said Sir Geoffrey will meet people in the coming two days. We
told him that we have not received any invitation to see him although we've
collected more than 600,000 signatures in support of out cause.
"We feel that it is very dishonourable. We regret that happened and
doubted whether he is sincere in listening to local views during the
visit," he said.
The letter repeated that three demands made by the demonstrators calling
for increased democracy, a bill of human rights and the right of abode for
Hongkong people in the UK.
Earlier, when he arrived at Kai Tak, Sir Geoffrey urged local people to
avoid confrontation. "You have no stauncher friend than Britain," he said.
Reading a prepared statement, Sir Geoffrey said he appreciated the
concerns felt by the people of Hongkong following recent events in China
but called for unity in seeking a future for the territory.
"The whole world has condemned the violence and repression we've all
witnessed in China in the last few weeks. Nowhere has that view been more
vigorously expressed than in Britain and in Hongkong."
The people of Hongkong felt "threatened and beleaguered" by what had
happened in China, Sir Geoffrey said.
He said he had come to the territory on a three-day visit to emphasise
that Britain's commitment to Hongkong and its people was "resolute and
unchanged".
Britain was committed to securing a democratic and prosperous future for
the territory which could best be established through the implementation of
the Joint Declaration.
He said his visit to Hongkong was designed to discover what the British
Government could "realistically" do to meet the anxieties of Hongkong
people over their future.
And Sir Gerffrey asked the local population to work together with the
British to find a solution.
"I underline the world `together' for it is in partnership and not in
confrontation that we must face the future," he said.
"I've come to listen as well as to explain. So I shall be having
extensive talks with the Governor and his advisers, and meeting Omelco and
a wide range of Hongkong people," he said.
Sir Geoffrey was met at the airport by the Governor Sir David Wilson, the
Chief Secretary, Sir David Ford and the Senior Executive and Legislative
councillors, Dame Lydia Dunn and Mr Allen Le Peng-fei.
Sir Geoffrey said while he was in the territory he would be visiting camps
used to hold vietnamese boat people, and would explain what Britain was
doing to assist Hongkong resolve the problem which had been facing Hongkong
for "too long".
He said he would visit the Eastern Harbour Crossing which was an example
of the Hongkong Government's "vigorous" development of the territory's
infra-structure.
"Under British administration, Hongkong has created a distinctive and
uniquely successful enterprise culture," he said.
The British Government would continue to strive to uphold the freedoms of
the people of Hongkong, he said.
"The objective remains the same. To safeguard your freedoms, your way of
life and prosperity beyond 1997.
"We're not about to give that up. We remain absolutely, indeed
passionately committed to that task," he said.
Sir Geoffrey was surrounded by more than a dozen police officers from the
Special Branch as soon as he stepped into the airport.
Police from the Tactical Unit were on duty outside the airport buildings
and held back a group of several hundred protesters who stood outside the
entrance to the arrivals hall.
The protesters held banners carrying slogans calling for the British
Government to accept its responsibilities for the people of Hongkong.
Emotion ran high as Sir Geoffrey was whisked away from the restricted area
within Kai Tak to be driven to Government House.
Hundreds of demonstrators shouted "protest, protest" as he left the
airport gate and Olympic Road was lined with banner-waving demonstrators.
One poster read: "Britain - God remembers your decision" and others worded
politely called for Britain to recognise its responsibilities for the
people of Hongkong.
Although organisers had expected more than 100,000 people only about 4,000
people joined the Kowloon rally with the clear absence of organised
students' and workers' groups.
Explaining the small turnout, Methodist leader Reverend Lo said:"The
recently released Foriegn Affairs Committee report has suppressed the
slightest hope of local people. Many people have given up. This is not
the correct attitude."
"We're not begging for something but fighting for what we are entitled to.
We have to let the world know during Howe's visit how we feel.
"Britiain has its moral, if not legal, responsibility towards the people
of Hongkong. We're talking about a clear principle that Hongkong needs
solidarity but not internal division. We're not arguing for a number (of
eligible emigrants.) It's a matter of rights, obligations and human
rights," said Mr Lo.
Unionist Lee Kai-ming said it was difficult to mobilise workers because
many felt a full British passport was useless to them.
"All they want are rice-bowls and a prosperous Hongkong. They're afraid
that Hongkong will become a vacant city if all businessmen and professional
quit."
Apart from strong aspirations for democracy and freedom, anti-British
feelings also dominated a rally at a Mongkok sporting ground which preceded
the march.
Many of the banners carried by the protesters denounced the actions of the
British Government with slogans such as "Brit Government is just an opium
trader", with "Shame on you" written on the reverse.
One speaker, Dr Joseph Cheng Yu-shek urged Hongkong people to consider
boycotting British merchandise if their demands were not heeded.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!njin!princeton!phoenix!afriend Sun Jul 16 12:38:51 PDT 1989
Article 19965 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!njin!princeton!phoenix!afriend
>From: afriend@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (A. Friend)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Have you heard of this?!!
Message-ID: <9241@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Date: 3 Jul 89 14:32:20 GMT
Reply-To: afriend@phoenix.Princeton.EDU ()
Organization: Princeton Univ. Computing and Information Technology
Lines: 5
In the TV news today, it is said that Li Peng explained the reason of
using real bullets and tanks is that the troop cannot find enough supply of
rubber bullets and water canon. "They have to use whatever they have." This
is really ludicrous. What a confession!
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!wei Sun Jul 16 12:39:38 PDT 1989
Article 19966 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!wei
>From: wei@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu (Siqing Wei)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Ted Koppel's TAMS Report
Message-ID: <487@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 15:10:38 GMT
References: <8906291205.AA25044@jade.berkeley.edu> <-288079992@hpcupt1.HP.COM>
Organization: Ohio State University Physics
Lines: 6
I just wonder if you do understand THE program.
Please do not make the kind of comment as you did
(twice !)
If you need review, try to get a copy and watch again,
just check if your point of view would hold.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!njin!princeton!phoenix!hehuang Sun Jul 16 12:41:07 PDT 1989
Article 19969 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!njin!princeton!phoenix!hehuang
>From: hehuang@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (He Huang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Important News!!!!
Summary: Terrorism in China.........
Message-ID: <9244@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Date: 3 Jul 89 15:20:01 GMT
Reply-To: hehuang@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (He Huang)
Distribution: all
Organization: Princeton University, NJ
Lines: 22
My friend has just made a phone call to his friend in China. He told me that
according to what he was told, Beijing is now in great chaos. His friend now
lives near Changan Ave.(The Eternal Peace Ave.), and 'cold shots' could be heard
occasionally, apparently aiming at soldiers either guarding or strolling along
the street. Safety is now a big problem in Beijing. Also, many travel agencies
in Hong Kong have received anonymous phone calls claiming as the organization
responsible for the explosion in the train at Shanghai station a few days ago,
and warning that in the coming days there will be many other such terrorism
actions on planes, or trains, or the like. The anonymous calls asked Hong Kong
and foreign travellers not to risk visiting China for the coming weeks .
Save our country! Save our people!
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Name | Telephone | Address |
|---------------------------|------------------|-----------------------------|
| He Huang (Yellow River) | (609)-683-7712 | #176, Graduate College |
| | | Princeton, NJ08544 |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary |
| safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
From polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF Sun Jul 16 12:42:03 PDT 1989
Article 19970 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF
>From: SHENF@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Zhiyong Shen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Important News!!!!
Message-ID: <2530@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 16:05:35 GMT
References: <9244@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Sender: news@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu
Organization: Ohio State University
Lines: 15
I got similar words from China -- hatred created by CCP is going to
multiply and multiply. Many Chinese have vowed to kill any soldier
or cadre they can kill. A "Gandong Daxia" (Manchurian Warrior) vowed to
kill 100 Chinese police. Several bodies of police have already appeared
and slogans of "Guandong Daxia is welcome here" have sprung up.
Also, many places have installed "Lian Bao" (chain responsibility) system.
If anyone in your group (or unit, class, company) commits a "crime against
the state", everyone in your group will suffer various degrees of punishment.
Every dynasty have these things when it comes to a horrible end.
The CCP dynasty is at its end.
Zhiyong
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!ukma!mailrus!cornell!batcomputer!zqli Sun Jul 16 12:44:03 PDT 1989
Article 19971 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!ukma!mailrus!cornell!batcomputer!zqli
>From: zqli@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Zhenqin Li)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: A Story of Khomeini (Re: A Suggestion for Efficiency)
Keywords: revolution
Message-ID: <8311@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 16:18:08 GMT
References: <4827@oregon.uoregon.edu> <MYfhUHy00XoZ41knsX@andrew.cmu.edu>
Reply-To: zqli@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu (Zhenqin Li)
Organization: Cornell Theory Center, Cornell University, Ithaca NY
Lines: 54
In article <MYfhUHy00XoZ41knsX@andrew.cmu.edu> ls2r+prc@andrew.cmu.edu writes:
>Hopefully, the efforts here, can be "transferred" in some way back into
>China to begin the real fight but now, people can meet and know who can
>be counted on and who can be trusted. The beginnings of the
>revolutionary movement begins here but will start in China.
>
>And, in a side note, that's how quite a number of revolutions have
>started. The most recent was the Ayatollah Khomeni and Iran. He
>started in France and transferred it into Iran at the opportune time.
I heard the following story about Ayatollah Khomeini
in exile, which may or may not be true.
*****
During his stay in France, Khomeini was very poor. He lived
on performing some irregular religious services among a small
group of Iranians in Paris, and occasionally lived on charity.
He could not return to Iran, since his motherland was ruled
by the dictatorial Shah of Iran backed by the U.S.A.. At the time,
Khomeini had very few friends. There were not many followers
either -- even they did not seem to pay much attention to Khomeini's
teachings.
One day, Khomeini was sitting in his studio reading the Koran.
He did not have enough food in the morning, and his stomach began
to make noises. While his eyes fixing firmly on the divine book,
his mind began wandering around the restaurants in Paris. For the
first time in his life, he suddenly realized the temptations of
the French foods. And back in his mind, there was a sort of muddleness
and confusions that started to alarm him. He asked himself, "Why
all of sudden I can not concentrate my mind on the Koran? Am I still
a truthful follower of Muhammad the Prophet?" Right at the moment,
he heard a knock at his door, and found that he was invited by his
landlady to taste some home-made soap, "the soap of pearls and jades"
as he was told. He found the soap so delicious and he felt so
grateful to the French lady, because with a full stomach, he once
again appreciated the wonderful world -- the same world in which
the Islamic saints once lived and taught.
After the incident, Khomeini became more determined than ever in
the belief of Islam. He vowed that in case he could return to Tehran,
he would bring back to the Iranian people not only the true spirit
of Islam, but also "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity, and Justice"
-- the values of the French Revolution that had been demonstrated
so convincingly by the French people.
The opportune time finally came, and the Shah of Iran was overthrown.
Khomeini returned to Iran triumphantly: a true Islamic revolution had
taken place. To this day, even after his death, many still
believe that Khomeini's revolution has profoundly changed Iran, and
benefited greatly the Iranian people. The Modern Iran can no longer
be ignored by the politicians and writers of the world.
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!csd4.milw.wisc.edu!dogie.macc.wisc.edu!indri!engr!shan Sun Jul 16 12:44:38 PDT 1989
Article 19972 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!csd4.milw.wisc.edu!dogie.macc.wisc.edu!indri!engr!shan
>From: shan@engr.wisc.edu (longgang shan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Warnig for Not Abusing Newsgroup soc.culture.china
Keywords: Warning, soc.culture.china
Message-ID: <22@engr.wisc.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 16:28:41 GMT
Organization: Computer Aided Engineering Center, UW-Madison
Lines: 1
newsgroup. Please do not abuse this precious newsgroup!!!
From polya!shelby!rutgers!gatech!purdue!haven!cvl!sher Sun Jul 16 12:45:23 PDT 1989
Article 19973 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!gatech!purdue!haven!cvl!sher
>From: sher@cvl.umd.edu (Chiaoyung Allen Sher)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: This is a long term struggle
Message-ID: <3881@cvl.umd.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 15:30:00 GMT
References: <14818@watdragon.waterloo.edu>
Reply-To: sher@cvl.UUCP (Chiaoyung Allen Sher)
Organization: Center for Automation Research, Univ. of Md.
Lines: 57
In article <14818@watdragon.waterloo.edu> hmrchan@tiger.waterloo.edu (Ricky Chan) writes:
>
>==========================================================================
>
>Some personal opinion:
>----------------------
>
>Many people had asked me, "What should we do now?"
>Frankly speaking, there is not much that we can do now.
>
> ...
>
On the contrary, there are PLENTY of things we can do.
The goal of all June 4th martyrs is to bring democracy to China.
If we view democracy not just as a philosophy or a kind of governmental
structure, but simply A WAY OF LIVING, then we can certainly do a lot
to promote it.
One of the things that moved me most in this whole movement
was that the martyrs, facing the most difficult situation in the late hours
of June 3rd, decided to form the DEMOCRACY UNIVERSITY OF CHINA.
It not only demonstrated how well they understood the enormity of the effort
of bring democracy to China but also their long-term dedication
to such great task. Through patient education, the torch of democracy
can and will be carry on to more and more people.
Donation to further help the victims,
keep finding out more truth about the arrests and executions,
maintain the momentum of a memorial statue, ...
are all things that need our contribution.
To establish more and more campuses of the Democracy University of China
to truely make democracy part of our way of living is, in my view,
even more important now that the hype has somewhat quieted down.
It is the best way to show that our commitments of both remembering
those who gave their lives for the cause and carrying on and lighting
even brighter the flame of democracy is solidly in our mind.
What the events in the past 2 months should bring us,
besides the moving experience, is our LONG-TERM determination
to firmly establish democracy as OUR way of living.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- C. Allen Sher / \ -- --- -- -
- sher@cvl.umd.edu /---\ -------- ----- ---| -
- mimsy!cvl!sher /_____\ / \ --- __ | / -
- (301)454-5858 / /|\ \ /\ /\ --- ||/ -
- Computer Vision Laboratory / | \ \/ --- / |\ -
- University of Maryland / | \ /\ | | / | \ -
- College Park, MD 20742 / | \ / \ --- | -
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- AN EYE FOR AN EYE MAKES THE WHOLE WORLD BLIND. -
- -- M. GANDHI -
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!wei Sun Jul 16 12:45:53 PDT 1989
Article 19974 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!wei
>From: wei@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu (Siqing Wei)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: A Story of Khomeini (Re: A Suggestion for Efficiency)
Keywords: revolution
Message-ID: <488@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 17:24:33 GMT
References: <4827@oregon.uoregon.edu> <MYfhUHy00XoZ41knsX@andrew.cmu.edu> <8311@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu>
Organization: Ohio State University Physics
Lines: 16
I doubt that Khomeini's revolution was really a good
thing for Iran or the world peace. Somehow, it is not
a triumph to me, though it did take the power, what
did this revolution give to his people ?
Vowing to kill all the western and western civilization ?
No---, it is not the kind of thing we Chinese should after.
(That's my point of view.) Another upmost emporer for China ?
We have had enough. What we need is the real human right
and freedom, we need a free enviroment to teach the people,
large number of Chinese people, though it is not easy.
Certainly it is not easy to change the culture background
of China, which has lasted for such a long time.
But we certainly do not want another Khomeini for China!
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU!yj1 Sun Jul 16 12:46:25 PDT 1989
Article 19975 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU!yj1
>From: yj1@CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (y)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Wang Dan might be arrested
Message-ID: <CMM.0.88.615491961.yj1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 17:59:21 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 5
according to today's World Journal. The famous Taiwaness reporter, Xu2
Lu4, who was one of the first ones went to Mainland, said another
Taiwaness reporter was meeting with Wang Dan in Beijing. They found
they were followed by police. They ran away. That reporter was
arrested. Xu believes Wang Dan is arrested also.
From polya!shelby!decwrl!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!lai Sun Jul 16 12:46:45 PDT 1989
Article 19976 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!lai
>From: lai@Apple.COM (Ed Lai)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Wang Dan might be arrested
Message-ID: <32842@apple.Apple.COM>
Date: 3 Jul 89 18:12:26 GMT
References: <CMM.0.88.615491961.yj1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu>
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA
Lines: 18
In article <CMM.0.88.615491961.yj1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu> yj1@CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (y) writes:
>according to today's World Journal. The famous Taiwaness reporter, Xu2
>Lu4, who was one of the first ones went to Mainland, said another
>Taiwaness reporter was meeting with Wang Dan in Beijing. They found
>they were followed by police. They ran away. That reporter was
>arrested. Xu believes Wang Dan is arrested also.
An appeal to journalist: as much as an interview with those in hiding in China
now is a journalist scoop, and is a psychological boost to the movement
outside China, it is too dangerous to the student leaders to try to interview
them now, I hope they should stop repeating this in the near future.
/* Disclaimer: All statments and opinions expressed are my own */
/* Edmund K. Lai */
/* Apple Computer, MS65-B */
/* 20525 Mariani Ave, */
/* Cupertino, CA 95014 */
/* (408)974-6272 */
From polya!shelby!rutgers!usc!bode.usc.edu!rli Sun Jul 16 12:47:19 PDT 1989
Article 19977 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!usc!bode.usc.edu!rli
>From: rli@bode.usc.edu (Rongsheng Li)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: visaum-10
Message-ID: <18228@usc.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 18:45:29 GMT
References: <8907031343.AA00399@eneevax.eng.umd.edu.>
Sender: news@usc.edu
Reply-To: rli@bode.usc.edu (Rongsheng Li)
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 18
I do not think it is a good idea to act against
any bills which does you good. In particular the following
is important:
1) We should tell the congress what we want;
2) We should support all the bills which help us;
3) We should convince people who support stronger bills
support the weaker bills at the same time. Also
people who think only weaker bills is feasible should
be convinced not to act against stronger bills for
the reason of infeasibility.
It is never a good idea to split votes.
R. Li
From polya!shelby!decwrl!purdue!atc Sun Jul 16 12:49:02 PDT 1989
Article 19978 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!purdue!atc
>From: atc@cs.purdue.EDU (Alexander Te Chen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: The Crisis in Mainland China - The Possible Outcome
Summary: Here's some more statistics
Message-ID: <7057@medusa.cs.purdue.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 19:09:10 GMT
References: <ZHAO.89Jul2155746@kythera.nmsu.edu>
Distribution: soc.culture.china
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Purdue University
Lines: 139
Source : Information Please Almanac (1989 and previous years)
pop GNP per GNP per GNP per
density billions capita billions capita billions capita
per U.S. income U.S. income U.S. income
sq mi
Albania 270.3 2.9 930 2.15 830 1.2 520
(1986) (1986) (1979) (1979) (1972) (1972)
China 294.4 343 330 350 347 373 390
(1985) (1985) (1982) (1982) (1977) (1977)
India 852.0 194.8 260 184.1 260 88 140
(1985) (1985) (1982) (1981) (1977) (1977)
Taiwan 1425.0 72.8 3750 46 2143 19.5 1170
(1985) (1986) (1982) (1982) (1977) (1977)
Korea, South 1120.0 117 2850 75 1880 31.5 880
(1987) (1985) (1983) (1983) (1977) (1977)
Korea, North 468.3 24 1180 16.2 786 24 590
(1985) (1985) (1982) (1982) (1976) (1976)
Singapore 10924.4 39.2 14435 16.4 4480 6.5 2800
(1987) (1987) (1983) (1980) (1977) (1977)
Hong Kong 14321.6 21.5 4210 21.5 4210 9.5 2750
(1980) (1980) (1980) (1980) (1976) (1976)
Japan 854.6 1366 12923 1060 9864 685 6010
(1985) (1985) (1981) (1981) (1977) (1977)
Cuba 232.9 15.8 1590 13.9 ---- 8 840
(1983) (1983) (1979) (1977) (1977)
Germany, East 397.4 174.7 10400 120.9 7180 69.2 4120
(1985) (1985) (1980) (1980) (1977) (1977)
Germany, West 637.4 628.2 10300 657.9 11130 628.2 8400
(1985) (1985) (1982) (1981) (1977) (1977)
Hungary 295.1 80.1 7520 22.5 4180 80.1 7520
(1985) (1985) (1981) (1980) (1977) (1977)
Yugoslavia 238.95 129.4 5600 58.6 2620 48 2210
(1985) (1985) (1980) (1980) (1977) (1977)
U.S.S.R. 33.1 2062 7896 1212 4550 1,000 3990
(1985) (1985) (1980) (1985) (1977) (1977)
U.S. 68.85 4487 15340 3310 8980 1900 7042
(1987) (1987) (1983) (1982) (1977) (1977)
The point of all this numerical tabulation is simply to show that
the economic development of China in the past 10 years was at a
standstill compared to the rest of the world. May be standstill
is too harsh a word. It didn't move forward appreciably in a manner
that would be consider beneficial to the masses.
We then have to ask ourselves the question, why is that?
(1) Could it be because of the huge population?
China's huge population is a problem. Nobody can deny that.
But let's look at India, she has doubled her per capita income
from one of the lowest. She has monumental population problems
like China's. But at least, her projection is upwards, not downwards.
If we can take an optimistic projection, she would again double
in ten years. And if China keeps going the way she's going, I am
afraid she'll be at the bottom of the world's per capita income.
Remember the "Tortoise and the Hare" fable.
(2) Could it be because of the economic system?
What I mean by economic system is "capitalism, socialism, and communism".
I'm going to answer that question in a diplomatic way. The countries
I have listed above all have different economic systems. I guess you can
pick just about any economic system you want and still be moving
forwards compared to Communist China. Even the People's Republic of
Albania is moving ahead of her so-called "teacher". If you're going to
argue the "problem size" again, let me say this: If the economic system
you are using doesn't suit you given "problem size", don't you think
you ought to change it?
(3) Could it be because of the political system?
What I mean by political system is "democratic, oligarchic dictatorships,
one-man dictatorships". Again, all the various political systems are
represented above. Most of them fall in the "grey areas". They all have
varying degrees of freedom and repression, from one extreme to another.
Again, you pick any one and you would do better than Communist China.
There seems to be no excuses at all. Unless of course, CCP doesn't fall
into any of the above classifications of economic or political systems.
Unless of course, that the numbers GNP and per capita income doesn't mean
much, but I did leave out OPEC countries. Per capita income by itself probably
doesn't mean much. But I have added two more columns of statistics for
the past ten years. For those of you who are really interested, you can find
World Bank and IMF financial statistics for each country such as consumer
prices, gold reserves, oil-reserves, etc. You can use these to get a good
estimate of whether the per capita income is a reasonable measure.
I think you can also get free information from the Census Bureau on
Compuserve. I will try to get those other statistics, if need be.
*****
About the "Taiwan experience", I probably should have mentioned that
the key to a successful economic plan was not simply to make money,
that was a by-product. The government had to institute various other
measures to insure:
(1) equal opportunity in education for all its citizens,
(2) equal opportunity in government service for all its citizens,
(3) and finally equal opportunity in business for all its citizens.
I would venture to say that the success of the economy is really
a measure of how successful these various other measures were instituted
and carried out. If any nation that could carry out these measures
successfully, I would say it is most likely that it is on its way
into becoming a democratic society. There might be struggles ahead, but
the nation is at least on a road that leads to a democratic society.
*****
If you want to blame China's troubles on bureaucratic corruption and
incompetency, that means the government probably didn't do a good job
with equal opportunity in education and government service. That is,
if you don't have equal opportunity in education, you're not going to
have your best nor your brighest in your universities. Let alone in
your government. If you're not going to have equal opportunity in
government service, you'll be left with incompetency and nepotism.
If you want to blame it on the population for being lazy, that probably means
the government didn't institute measures to insure equal opportunity
in education nor in business for all its citizens. If it's going to be
capitalism for the high officials and communism for the masses, I don't think
one would slave very hard for the them. As matter of fact, everyone would be
very lazy waiting for a hand-out. If they could find any opportunity to loaf,
they would. Because that is the most subtle way of expressing their
indignation at a government without getting their heads chopped off.
Alex Chen
From polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!bsu-cs!xiong Sun Jul 16 12:50:06 PDT 1989
Article 19980 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!bsu-cs!xiong
>From: xiong@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Bo Xiong)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Nominating "Tiananmen Movement For Demoncracy" For Nobel Prize
Summary: I am helping to post this
Message-ID: <8040@bsu-cs.bsu.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 19:04:12 GMT
Reply-To: xiong@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Bo Xiong)
Organization: CS Dept, Ball St U, Muncie, Indiana
Lines: 76
>From SONGWN@McMaster.CA Mon Jul 3 13:51:35 1989
===============================================================================
Please help us to post on china-net or your net, please. I failed to post on
china-net, could you tell me how? W. Song, McMaster Univ.
------------------------------------------------------------
To Whom It May Concern,
We, Chinese students here, are collecting signatures for the
nominating the " TIANANMEN MOVEMENT FOR DEMOCRACY" led by
Chinese students for the Nobel Peace Price(NPP) next year.
We expect some Chinses students will do the same job in
other countries.
We know Chai Lin, one of the Chinese students leader, has
been nominated for the Nobel Peace Price and Many Chinses
students around the world are putting their efforts to this
aim. But many of us believe that it's more suitable to
nominate the whole students movement as a group candidate.
1. This will overthrow the big lie which says the whole
movement is a counter-revolutionary riot. Instead, winning
the NPP will demonstrate to the world, and to the Chinese
people, that the goals and efforts of the movement are
respectable and honorable;
2. It's quite fair to the students and civilians who died
during the massacre, and those who have been arrested for
joining the movement;
3. Maybe, some Chinese people won't remember who is Chai
Lin, but no doubt, everyone will remember the massacre, no
matter how he think it of right now.
4. It's possible for group to win. In NPP's history, Inter-
national Red Cross won three times, and the 1988's NPP was
awarded to the UN peace Keeping army.
We understand that the more people nominate, the more
the chance to win, and Norway Embassy in Canada told us
everyone has the right to nominate.
The following are the signature sheet we use and the letter
to the NPP committee. We collect signatures both on compus
and off compus, from Chinese students and scholars, and
Canadian friends. You could send the signed sheets to the
address below.
Chinese students and scholars at McMaster
-------------------------cut off here -------------------
To: DET NORSKE NOBELINSTITUTT
DRAMMESVEIEN 19
0255 OSLO 2
NORWAY
We, the undersigned, nominate the "TIANANMEN MOVEMENT FOR DEMOCRACY"
led by Chinese students for the NObel Peace Price.
____________________________________________________________________
I I
Name I Signature I Address
____________I_____________________I_________________________________
I I
____________I_____________________I_________________________________
I I
____________I_____________________I_________________________________
I I
____________I_____________________I_________________________________
I I
____________I_____________________I_________________________________
I I
____________I_____________________I_________________________________
==============================================================================
.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!purdue!chuang Sun Jul 16 12:50:37 PDT 1989
Article 19981 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!purdue!chuang
>From: chuang@cs.purdue.EDU (Jung-Hong Chuang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: The Crisis in Mainland China - The Possible Outcome
Message-ID: <7058@medusa.cs.purdue.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 19:28:33 GMT
References: <3046@rtech.rtech.com>
Distribution: soc.culture.china
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Purdue University
Lines: 48
In article <3046@rtech.rtech.com>, alexh@rtech.rtech.com (Alex Hwang) writes:
> In article <4807@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> matloff@iris.ucdavis.edu (Norm Matloff) writes:
> [ previous article reference deleted]
>
> >it produced, but that is a false argument. Look at Hong Kong! It
> >has been highly successful economically, WITHOUT the political
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
> >repression. This is an important point, because CCP is using
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
> >this same kind of argument to justify their current repression.
>
> Hong Kong is a colony! It was ran by the British. Why
> don't we turn China to British? This is a worhtless arguemnt.
Without democracy too, I think. This is the reason why HK people want to
set up their democracy system before 1997.
Can anyone say something about how HK colonial government runs HK?
>
> >their economy is than China's. Since Hong Kong has no
> >propagandists :-) we don't hear much about HK's economic
If HK's economy is very successful and is an example of under-developing or
developing countries, western economists will propagate it.
I think the so called "Taiwan experience" and "Taiwan miracle" came from
western economists, not KMT propagandists.
Actually, ROC government has been lacking of confidence for a long time. It
become confident just recently.
> >success. Its economy dwarfs Taiwan's: According to the
> >magazine The Economist, the mean GDP per person for Hong Kong
> >is $9,400 while for Taiwan it is only $5,900. Of course, there
> >are LOTS of differences, but I think it's wrong to leave HK out
> >of our discussion.
> >
> > Norm
>
> I think you better stick to the 228 and KMT pissing contests.
>
> Alex Hwang
I don't know the spectrum of HK people, but, in Taiwan, high percentage of
people are farmers, fishermen,... Does this affect the number of GDP?
Chuang
From polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF Sun Jul 16 12:51:12 PDT 1989
Article 19983 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF
>From: SHENF@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Zhiyong Shen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: The Crisis in Mainland China - The Possible Outcome
Message-ID: <2533@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 19:19:43 GMT
References: <ZHAO.89Jul2155746@kythera.nmsu.edu> <7057@medusa.cs.purdue.edu>
Sender: news@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu
Organization: Ohio State University
Lines: 9
Alex, thanks for a good analysis. Maybe the conclusion is rather obvious
but I would like to point it out anyway: the Chinese Communist Party has
its only success -- it made a concoction out of the worst parts from all the
possible systems. A Chinese scientist trained in the Soviet Union and
re-trained in the US once said that it takes some hideous form of mental
ability to collect the worst parts of feudalism, communism, capitalism
and slavery to build a "Chinese style socialism" and maintain it.
Zhiyong
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!att!cbnewsh!yu Sun Jul 16 12:54:50 PDT 1989
Article 19988 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!att!cbnewsh!yu
>From: yu@cbnewsh.ATT.COM (meng-lin.mark.yu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: 228
Message-ID: <1877@cbnewsh.ATT.COM>
Date: 3 Jul 89 16:22:57 GMT
References: <8906241828.AA10482@cscwam.UMD.EDU> <1024@cb.ecn.purdue.edu> <1836@cbnewsh.ATT.COM> <4805@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>
Reply-To: yu@cbnewsh.ATT.COM (meng-lin.mark.yu)
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 24
== People who studied enough about Chiang know that he was lenient in general
=
=This is not consistent with the facts in Chen Yi's case. Chiang
... when chen
=entered into a negotiation with CCP, Chiang had Chen executed.
Leniency doesn't extend to "traitors" to Chiang.
=
==bad move.) The problem about 228 is that IMOP, the government then wrongly
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
==believed that there was a turmoil, anarchy, mob, revolution or whatever you
==called it threatened the control of Taiwan and lives of many mainlanders,
=
=This is EXACTLY the same excuse that CCP is using right now for its
=June 4 massacre in Beijing.
=
I don't see CCP could "wrongly" believe what TAM event was.
People would have a hard time to be convinced that it was not a well planned
deliberately calculated move by the regime. You need more than stupidity to
wrongly believe there is a mob when you have a stable controlled regime and
when you can see what those people are doing right outside your window.
Meng-Lin
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!purdue!haven!cvl!liuqing Sun Jul 16 12:55:33 PDT 1989
Article 19989 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!purdue!haven!cvl!liuqing
>From: liuqing@cvl.umd.edu (Larry Liuqing Huang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: 2-year Waiver: A letter from Congress To President Bush
Summary: Urges the adminstration to waive 2 year requirement & more
Keywords: 2 year waiver, congress, Chinese students, ...
Message-ID: <3883@cvl.umd.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 18:09:26 GMT
Reply-To: liuqing@cvl.UUCP (Larry Liuqing Huang)
Organization: Center for Automation Research, Univ. of Md.
Lines: 90
CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES
House of Representatives
Washington, DC 20515
June 23, 1989
The Honorable George Bush
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20500
Dear Mr. President:
In the wake of the Chinese government's brutal crackdown on the pro-
democracy movement, we are writing to you out of concern for the
thousands of Chinese citizens currently in this country. Many of
them are understandably anxious about returning home during this
time of upheaval and repression.
There are two issues which require immediate attention. First, of
the 40,000 Chinese students currently in this country, 70% are in
this country on a J-1 visa. This requires that they return home for
at least two years after they have finished their studies. We urge
that this requirement be waived for all Chinese students in this
country on a J-1 visa who wish to remain here. Also, we urge that
these students be granted work authorization if their circumstances
warrant it.
Second, although we applaud your decision to grant Chinese students
"deferred departure" status in this country, we urge you to modify
current practice which requires them to declare their unwillingness
to return to China. Such a declaration could put these people at
risk when they return home. As a result, we are deeply concerned
that many students who would otherwise qualify for deferred
departure status will not apply out of fear for their future safety.
Instead, we urge that Chinese students be allowed to extend their
stay in this country without the requirement that they declare an
unwillingness to return home.
We know that you share our concern about the well being of the
Chinese nationals in this country who would be at risk if they were
to return home and we applaud your Administration's actions to date
to protect them from persecution at home. However, as the situation
in China continues to deteriorate and more people are taken into
custody or threatened with incarceration or even death, it is
critical that we do more.
We urge you to act quickly to waive the two year return requirement
for Chinese students on J-1 visas and eliminate any requirement that
they declare their unwillingness to return home in order to qualify
for deferred departure status. Such a policy will help ensure that
all Chinese students in this country who wish to stay here are able
to do so.
Thank you for your consideration of our request.
Sincerely,
(Signatures of 116 Representatives from page 2 to page 7)
Levine Berman Kennedy Weber Dorgan
Mrazek Manton Rowland Evans Harris
Frank Moody Stark Feighan Price
Wise McNulty Miller Udahl Leach
Studds Ackerman Martinez Levin Inhofe
Borski Visclosky Sikorski Faleomavaega Atkins
Lipinski Hayes Machtley Walsh Valentine
Porter Johnston Roth DeFazio Lagomarsino
Sharp Wolpe
Gedjenson Schneider Unsoeld Solarz Sangmeister
Towns Fauntroy B. N. Compbell Markey Dellums
Brown Hamilton Gilman Collins Regula
Yatron Miller Rose deLugo Stangeland
Roe Stokes
Traxler LaFalce McHugh Lewis Gingrich
Garcia Chris Smith Synar Hall Ritter
Coyne Weiss Scheuer Matsui Conyers
Fish Vento Waxman Schroeder Espy
Bosco Walgrin
Sarpalius Penny Boxer Bryant Nagle
Cooper Wayne Owens Robinson Bilirakis Fazio
Dornan Moakley Major Owens Bruce Skaggs
Poshard Frost Bentley Courter Fawell
Dixon Steve Neal
Guarini Solomon Rohrabacher Richard Neal Schuette
Panetta Schumer Wheat
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!UICBERT.EECS.UIC.EDU!yu Sun Jul 16 12:56:12 PDT 1989
Article 19990 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!UICBERT.EECS.UIC.EDU!yu
>From: yu@UICBERT.EECS.UIC.EDU (Clement Yu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: IMPORTANT! Very Effective Lobbying
Message-ID: <8907032112.AA22795@uicbert.eecs.uic.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 21:12:04 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 383
Important: VERY EFFECTIVE LOBBYING (short)
The students from University of Illinois at Chicago have been working
very hard for Nancy Pelosi's bill. The first effort was to collect
signitures at supermarkets and airports etc. About 1500 signitures were
collected within one day. Then student representatives were sent out
to Washington, D.C. on 20th of June to hand in copies of the signitures
to the offices of all the 22 Ill-reps, and talked to them. This may
contribute greatly to the sudden boom of the number of Illinois
cosponsors last week (from 6 to 14).
Now we are working on the remaining 8 Ill-reps who have not yet
cosponsored Nancy's bill. The means we are taking are
(1)find out the electorial districts from where those 8 representatives
are elected (go to any lib you can easily find them)
(2)students are assigned to different districts for campaigning
(a very efficient way is to go to local churches (SUNDAY only) and
ask the minister to introduce you to his audiance, so you collect
signiture during the break, you can ask them to make phone calls
too. Be sure to tell them Nancy's bill# HR2712 if they wish to call)
(3)send the signitures & letters to the corresponding representative.
Since the signitures are collected from the very place where the
concerned representative is elected, this must have a very strong
impact on their voting decision. You may wish to send the signed
letters separately. Since there is a difference between being for
the bill and cosponsoring the bill (if more than 217 reps cosponsor
the bill, the bill goes directly to the House for voting, bypassing
the (sub)committee which seems to be reluctant to pass it), you
may want them to explicitly express their wish that the rep.
COSPONSORS the bill.
(4)We distribute the list of representatives in all states who have not
yet cosponsored the bill to students here, and ask them to call their
friends in these states to act. This list is also enclosed
below for your convenience. We urge all Chinese students to campaign
hard. Especially those from the universities in Michigan (only 1 out
of 18 rep. cosponsors), Florida (2/19), Maryland (1/8), Ohio (5/21),
Penn. (6/23), Texas (7/27), Calif. (17/45), and Iowa (0/6), to
mention a few.
We must understand that the only hope for the bill to pass is the
effort from all of us. Any illusion that the bill can pass without
our effort will be fatal. The hope is there, which can only be achieved
via our hard working.
Visa Committee, University of Illinois at Chicago
=======================================================================
== List of Representatives (not cosponsored Pelosi's Bill on 7/2) ==
Address in Zip Code (Area Code 202)
ALABAMA (1/7) D.C.
Sonny Callahan 1232 LH 20515-0101 tel: 225-4931 fax: 225-0562
William L. Dickinson 2406 RH 20515-0102 tel: 225-2901
Glen Browder 1630 LH 20515-0103 tel: 225-3261
Tom Bevill 1630 LH 20515-0103 tel: 225-3261
Ronnie G. Flippo 2334 RH 20515-0105 tel: 225-4801 fax: 225-4392
Claude Harris 1009 LH 20515-0107 tel: 225-2665 fax: 225-0175
Arizona (1/5)
John J. Rhodes III 412 CH 20515-0301 tel: 225-2635 fax: 225-0985
Bob Stump 211 CH 20515-0303 tel: 225-4576 fax: 225-6328
Jon Kyl 313 CH 20515-0304 tel: 225-3361 fax: 225-1143
Jim Kolbe 410 CH 20515-0305 tel: 225-2542 fax: 225-0378
Arkansas (0/4)
Bill Alexander 233 CH 20515-0401 tel: 225-4076 fax: 225-6182
Tommy F. Robinson 1541 LH 20515-0402 tel: 225-2506 fax: 225-9273
John Paul Hammerschmidt 2110 RH 20515-0403 tel: 225-4301 fax: 225-1141
Beryl F. Anthony, Jr. 1117 LH 20515-0404 tel: 225-3772 fax: 225-3646
California (17/45)
Douglas H. Bosco 225 CH 20515-0501 tel: 225-3311 fax: 225-5577
Wally Herger 1108 LH 20515-0502 tel: 225-3076
George Miller 2228 RH 20515-0507 tel: 225-2095 fax: 225-5609
Don Edwards 2307 RH 20515-0510 tel: 225-3072 fax: 225-9460
Norman Y. Mineta 2350 RH 20515-0513 tel: 225-2631
Norman D. Shumway 1203 LH 20515-0514 tel: 225-2511 fax: 225-5444
Tony Coelho 403 CH 20515-0515 tel: 225-6131 fax: 225-0819
Charles Pashayan, Jr. 203 CH 20515-0517 tel: 225-3341 fax: 225-9308
Richard H. Lehman 1319 LH 20515-0518 tel: 225-4540
Robert J. Lagomarsino 2332 RH 20515-0519 tel: 225-3601 fax: 225-3096
William M. Thomas 2402 RH 20515-0520 tel: 225-2915 fax: 225-8798
Elton Gallegly 107 CH 20515-0521 tel: 225-5811
Carlos J. Moorhead 2346 RH 20515-0522 tel: 225-4176 fax: 226-1279
Henry A. Waxman 2418 RH 20515-0524 tel: 225-3976 fax: 225-4099
Edward R. Roybal 2211 RH 20515-0525 tel: 225-6235 fax: 226-1251
Howard L. Berman 137 CH 20515-0526 tel: 225-4695
Julian C. Dixon 2400 RH 20515-0528 tel: 225-7084 fax: 225-4091
Augustus F. Hawkins 2371 RH 20515-0529 tel: 225-2201 fax: 225-7854
Mervyn M. Dymally 1717 LH 20515-0531 tel: 225-5425 fax: 225-6847
Glenn M. Anderson 2329 RH 20515-0532 tel: 225-6676 fax: 225-1597
David Dreier 411 CH 20515-0533 tel: 225-2305
Jerry Lewis 2312 RH 20515-0535 tel: 225-5861 fax: 225-6498
Al McCandless 2435 CH 20515-0537 tel: 225-5330 fax: 226-1040
William E. Dannemeyer 2351 RH 20515-0539 tel: 225-4111
C. Christopher Cox 510 CH 20515-0540 tel: 225-5611 fax: 225-9177
Bill Lowery 2433 RH 20515-0541 tel: 225-3201 fax: 225-7383
Dana Rohrabacher 1017 LH 20515-0542 tel: 225-2415 fax: 225-0145
Duncan L. Hunter 133 CH 20515-0545 tel: 225-5672 fax: 225-0235
Colorado (3/6)
Hank Brown 1724 LH 20515-0604 tel: 225-4676 fax: 225-8630
Joel Hefley 222 CH 20515-0605 tel: 225-4422 fax: 225-1942
Florida (2/19)
Earl Hutto 2435 RH 20515-0901 tel: 225-4136 fax: 225-5785
Bill Grant 1333 LH 20515-0902 tel: 225-5235 fax: 225-1586
Craig T. James 1408 LH 20515-0904 tel: 225-4035 fax: 225-1727
Bill McCollum 1507 LH 20515-0905 tel: 225-2176
Cliff Stearns 1723 LH 20515-0906 tel: 225-5744
Sam M. Gibbons 2204 RH 20515-0907 tel: 225-3376
C.W. Bill Young 2407 RH 20515-0908 tel: 225-5961 fax: 225-9764
Michael Bilirakis 1530 LH 20515-0909 tel: 225-5755 fax: 225-4085
Andy Ireland 2416 RH 20515-0910 tel: 225-5015 fax: 225-6944
Bill Nelson 2404 RH 20515-0911 tel: 225-3671 fax: 225-9039
Tom Lewis 1216 LH 20515-0912 tel: 225-5792 fax: 225-1860
Porter J. Goss 509 CH 20515-0913 tel: 225-2536 fax: 225-6820
Harry A. Johnson, II 1517 LH 20515-0914 tel: 225-3001 fax: 225-8791
E. Clay Shaw, Jr. 440 CH 20515-0915 tel: 225-3026 fax: 225-8398
William Lehman 2347 RH 20515-0917 tel: 225-4211 fax: 225-6208
Claude Pepper 2239 RH 20515-0918 tel: 225-3931 fax: 225-5620
Dante B. Fascell 2354 RH 20515-0919 tel: 225-4506 fax: 225-0724
Georgia (3/10)
Lindsay Thomas 431 CH 20515-1001 tel: 225-5831 fax: 225-6922
Charles F. Hatcher 405 CH 20515-1002 tel: 225-3631 fax: 225-1117
Richard Ray 425 CH 20515-1003 tel: 225-5901 fax: 225-1598
George (Buddy) Darden 228 CH 20515-1007 tel: 225-2931
J. Roy Rowland 423 CH 20515-1008 tel: 225-6531
Ed Jenkins 2427 RH 20515-1009 tel: 225-5221
Doug Barnard, Jr. 2227 RH 20515-1010 tel: 225-4101 fax: 225-1873
Indiana: (2/9) office phone
Burton, Dan (R-6th IN) 120 225-4511
Hamilton, Lee H. (D-9th IN) 2187 225-5315
Long, Jill (D-4th IN) 1632 225-4436
McCloskey, Frank (D-8th IN) 127 225-4636
Meyers, John T. (R-7th IN) 2372 225-5805
Sharp, Philip R (D-2nd IN) 2217 225-3021
Visclosky, Peter J (D-1st IN) 420 225-2461
Iowa: (0/6)
Grandy, Fred (R-6th IA) 418 225-5476
Leach,Jim (R-1st IA) 1514 225-6576
Lightfoot, Jim (R-5th) 1222 225-3806
Nagle, David R (D-3rd IA) 214 225-3301
Smith, Neal (D-4th IA) 2373 225-4426
Tauke, Thomas J (R-2nd IA) 2244 225-2911
Kansas (3/5)
Pat Roberts 1323 LH 20515-1601 tel: 225-2715 fax: 225-5375
Jan Meyers 315 CH 20515-1603 tel: 225-2865 fax: 225-0554
Kentucky (1/7)
William H. Natcher 2333 RH 20515-1702 tel: 225-3501
Romano L. Mazzoli 2246 RH 20515-1703 tel: 225-5401
Jim Bunning 116 CH 20515-1704 tel: 225-3465 fax: 225-0003
Harold Rogers 434 CH 20515-1705 tel: 225-4601 fax: 225-0940
Larry J. Hopkins 2437 RH 20515-1706 tel: 225-4706 fax: 225-1413
Carl C. Perkins 1004 LH 20515-1707 tel: 225-4935
Louisiana (3/8)
Bob Livingston 2412 RH 20515-1801 tel: 225-3015 fax: 225-0739
Lindy Boggs 2353 RH 20515-1802 tel: 226-6636 fax: 226-1239
Jim McCrery 1721 LH 20515-1804 tel: 225-2777 fax: 225-8039
Jerry Huckaby 2182 RH 20515-1805 tel: 225-2376 fax: 225-2387
Richard Baker 404 CH 20515-1806 tel: 225-3901 fax: 225-7313
MAINE (0/2)
Joseph E. Brennan 1428 LH 20515-1901 tel: 225-6116 fax: 225-9065
Olympia J. Snowe 2464 RH 20515-1902 tel: 225-6306 fax: 225-8880
MARYLAND (1/8)
Roy P. Dyson 326 CH 20515-2001 tel: 225-5331 fax: 225-0254
Helen Delich Bentley 1610 LH 20515-2002 tel: 225-3061 fax: 225-4251
Benjamin L. Cardin 507 CH 20515-2003 tel: 225-4016 fax: 225-9219
Tom McMillen 327 CH 20515-2004 tel: 225-8090 fax: 225-8099
Beverly B. Byron 2430 RH 20515-2006 tel: 225-2721 fax: 225-6159
Kweisi Mfume 128 CH 20515-2007 tel: 225-4741
Constance A. Morella 1024 LH 20515-2008 tel: 225-5341 fax: 225-1389
MASSACHUSETTS (5/11)
Richard E. Neal 1631 LH 20515-2102 tel: 225-5601 fax: 225-8112
Joseph D. Early 2349 RH 20515-2103 tel: 225-6101 fax: 225-3181
Barney Frank 1030 LH 20515-2104225-5931
Nicholas Mavroules 2432 RH 20515-2106 tel: 225-8020 fax: 225-8023
Edward J. Markey 2133 RH 20515-2107 tel: 225-2836
Brian Donnelly 2229 RH 20515-2111 tel: 225-3215
MICHIGAN (1/18)
John Conyers, Jr. 2426 RH 20515-2201 tel: 225-5126 fax: 225-0072
Carl D. Pursell 1414 LH 20515-2202 tel: 225-4401
Howard Wolpe 1535 LH 20515-2203 tel: 225-5011 fax: 225-8602
Fred Upton 1713 LH 20515-2204 tel: 225-3761 fax: 225-4986
Paul B. Henry 215 CH 20515-2205 tel: 225-3831
Bob Carr 2439 RH 20515-2206 tel: 225-4872 fax: 225-1260
Dale E. Kildee 2262 RH 20515-2207 tel: 225-3611 fax: 225-3692
Bob Traxler 2366 RH 20515-2208 tel: 225-2806 fax: 225-3046
Guy Vander Jagt 2409 RH 20515-2209 tel: 225-3511
Bill Schuette 415 CH 20515-2210 tel: 225-3561 fax: 225-6971
Robert W. Davis 2417 RH 20515-2211 tel: 225-4735 fax: 225-3588
David E. Bonior 2242 RH 20515-2212 tel: 225-2106 fax: 226-1169
Dennis M. Hertel 2442 RH 20515-2214 tel: 225-6276
William D. Ford 239 CH 20515-2215 tel: 225-6261
John D. Dingell 2221 RH 20515-2216 tel: 225-4071 fax: 225-7426
Sander M. Levin 323 CH 20515-2217 tel: 225-4961
William S. Broomfield 2306 RH 20515-2218 tel: 225-6135 fax: 225-1807
MINNESOTA (4/8)
Bill Frenzel 1026 LH 20515-2303 tel: 225-2871 fax: 225-6351
Martin Olav Sabo 2201 RH 20515-2305 tel: 225-4755
Arlan Stangeland 2245 RH 20515-2307 tel: 225-2165 fax: 225-1593
James L. Oberstar 2209 RH 20515-2308 tel: 225-6211 fax: 225-0699
MISSISSIPPI (1/5)
Jamie L. Whitten 2314 RH 20515-2401 tel: 225-4306 fax: 225-4328
Mike Espy 216 CH 20515-2402 tel: 225-5876 fax: 225-5898
Mike Parker 1725 LH 20515-2404 tel: 225-5865 fax: 225-5886
Larkin Smith 516 CH 20515-2405 tel: 225-5772 fax: 225-7074
MISSOURI (2/9)
William L. (Bill) Clay 2470 RH 25015-2501 tel: 225-2406 fax: 225-1783
Jack Buechner 502 CH 20515-2502 tel: 225-2561 fax: 225-1378
Ike Skelton 2134 RH 20515-2504 tel: 225-2876 fax: 225-2695
Alan Wheat 1204 LH 20515-2505 tel: 225-4535
E. Thomas Coleman 2468 RH 20515-2506 tel: 225-7041 fax: 225-4799
Mel Hancock 511 CH 20515-2507 tel: 225-6536 fax: 225-7700
Bill Emerson 438 CH 20515-2508 tel: 225-4404 fax: 225-9621
NEBRASKA (0/3)
Doug Bereuter 2446 RH 20515-2701 tel: 225-4806 fax: 226-1148
Peter Hoagland 1415 LH 20515-2702 tel: 225-4155 fax: 225-4684
Virginia Smith 2202 RH 20515-2703 tel: 225-6435 fax: 225-0207
NEW JERSEY (8/14)
James J. Florio 2162 RH 20515-3001 tel: 225-6501
William J. Hughes 341 CH 20515-3003 tel: 225-6572 fax: 226-1108
Frank Pallone, Jr. 1207 LH 20515-3003 tel: 225-4671 fax: 225-9665
Marge Roukema 303 CH 20515-3005 tel: 225-4465 fax: 225-9048
Donald Payne 417 CH 20515-3010 tel: 225-3436
Dean A. Gallo 1318 LH 20515-3011 tel: 225-5034 fax: 225-0658
NEW MEXICO (1/3)
Joe Skeen 1007 LH 20515-3102 tel: 225-2365 fax: 225-9599
Bill Richardson 332 CH 20515-3103 tel: 225-6190
NEW YORK (24/34)
Thomas J. Downey 2232 RH 20515-3202 tel: 225-3335 fax: 226-1275
Charles E. Schumer 126 CH 20515-3210 tel: 225-6616 fax: 225-4183
Stephen J. Solarz 1536 LH 20515-3213 tel: 225-2361 fax: 225-9469
Guy V. Molinari 2453 RH 20515-3214 tel: 225-3371 fax: 226-1272
Eliot L. Engel 1407 LH 20515-3219 tel: 225-2464
Hamilton Fish, Jr. 2269 RH 20515-3221 tel: 225-5441 fax: 225-0962
Gerald B. Solomon 2265 RH 20515-3224 tel: 225-5614 fax: 225-1668
David O'B. Martin 442 CH 20515-3226 tel: 225-4611
Henry J. Nowak 2240 RH 20515-3233 tel: 225-3306 fax: 225-3523
Amo Houghton 1217 LH 20515-3234 tel: 225-3161 fax: 225-5574
NORTH CAROLINA (6/11)
Howard Coble 430 CH 20515-3306 tel: 225-3065 fax: 225-8611
W.G.(Bill) Hefner 2161 RH 20515-3308 tel: 225-3715 fax: 225-4036
Alex McMillan 401 CH 20515-3309 tel: 225-1976 fax: 225-8995
Cass Ballenger 218 CH 20515-3310 tel: 225-2576 fax: 225-0316
James McClure Clarke 217 CH 20515-3311 tel: 225-6401 fax: 225-0519
OHIO (5/21)
Willis D. Gradison, Jr. 2311 RH 20515-3502 tel: 225-3164
Michael G. Oxley 1131 LH 20515-3504 tel: 225-2676
Paul E. Gillmor 1008 LH 20515-3505 tel: 225-6405
Bob McEwen 2431 RH 20515-3506 tel: 225-5705 fax: 225-0224
Michael DeWine 1705 LH 20515-3507 tel: 225-4324 fax: 225-1984
Marcy Kaptur 1228 LH 20515-3505 tel: 225-4146 fax: 225-7711
Clarence E. Miller 2308 RH 20515-3510 tel: 225-5131 fax: 225-5132
Dennis E. Eckart 1210 LH 20515-3511 tel: 225-6331 fax: 225-1514
John R. Kasich 113 LH 20515-3512 tel: 225-5355
Don J. Pease 2410 RH 20515-3513 tel: 225-3401 fax: 225-0066
Thomas C. Sawyer 1518 LH 20515-3514 tel: 225-5231 fax: 225-5278
Chalmers P. Wylie 2310 RH 20515-3515 tel: 225-2015 fax: 225-7548
Ralph Regula 2207 RH 20515-3516 tel: 225-3876 fax: 225-3059
James A. Traficant, Jr. 312 CH 20515-3517 tel: 225-5261 fax: 225-3719
Douglas Applegate 2183 RH 20515-3518 tel: 225-6265 fax: 225-3087
Mary Rose Oakar 2231 RH 20515-3520 tel: 225-5871 fax: 225-0663
OKLAHOMA (1/6)
James M. Inhofe 408 CH 20515-3601 tel: 225-2211 fax: 225-9187
Wes Watkins 2348 RH 20515-3603 tel: 225-4565 fax: 225-9029
Dave McCurdy 2344 RH 20515-3604 tel: 225-6165
Mickey Edwards 2330 RH 20515-3605 tel: 225-2132
Glenn English 2206 RH 20515-3606 tel: 225-5565 fax: 225-8698
OREGON (2/5)
Robert F. (Bob) Smith 118 CH 20515-3702 tel: 225-6730 fax: 225-3129
Denny Smith 1213 LH 20515-3705 tel: 225-5711 fax: 225-9711
PENNSYLVANIA (6/23)
William H. Gray III 2454 RH 20515-3802 tel: 225-4001 fax: 225-2995
Richard T. Schulze 2369 RH 20515-3805 tel: 225-5761
Gus Yatron 2205 RH 20515-3806 tel: 225-5546 fax: 225-5548
Curt Weldon 1233 LH 20515-3807 tel: 225-2011 fax: 225-8137
Peter H. Kostmayer 123 CH 20515-3808 tel: 225-4276 fax: 225-5060
Bud Shuster 2268 RH 20515-3809 tel: 225-2431
Joseph M. McDade 2370 RH 20515-3810 tel: 225-3731 fax: 225-9594
Paul E. Kanjorski 424 CH 20515-3811 tel: 225-6511
John P. Murtha 2423 RH 20515-3812 tel: 225-2065 fax: 225-5709
Lawrence Coughlin 2309 RH 20515-3813 tel: 225-6111
Robert S. Walker 2445 RH 20515-3816 tel: 225-2411 fax: 225-2484
George W. Gekas 1519 LH 20515-3817 tel: 225-4315 fax: 225-8440
Doug Walgren 2241 RH 20515-3818 tel: 225-2135 fax: 225-7747
William F. Goodling 2263 RH 20515-3819 tel: 225-5836 fax: 225-1000
Joseph M. Gaydos 2186 RH 20515-3820 tel: 225-4631
Tom Ridge 1714 LH 20515-3821 tel: 225-5406 fax: 225-1081
Austin J. Murghy 2210 RH 20515-3822 tel: 225-4665 fax: 225-4772
SOUTH CAROLINA (1/6)
Arthur Ravenel, Jr. 508 CH 20515-4001 tel: 225-3176 fax: 225-4340
Floyd Spence 2405 RH 20515-4002 tel: 225-2452 fax: 225-2455
Butler Derrick 201 CH 20515-4003 tel: 225-5301
Elizabeth J. Patterson 1641 LH 20515-4004 tel: 225-6030 fax: 225-7664
Robin M. Tallon 432 CH 20515-4006 tel: 225-3315 fax: 225-2857
TENNESSEE (2/9)
John J. Duncan, Jr. 506 CH 20515-4202 tel: 225-5435 fax: 225-6440
Marilyn Lloyd 2266 RH 20515-4203 tel: 225-3271 fax: 225-6974
Bob Clement 325 CH 20515-4205 tel: 225-4311 fax: 226-1035
Bart Gordon 103 CH 20515-4206 tel: 225-4231 fax: 225-6887
Don Sundquist 230 CH 20515-4207 tel: 225-2811 fax: 225-2814
John Tanner 512 CH 20515-4208 tel: 225-4714 fax: 225-1765
Harold E. Ford 2305 RH 20515-4209 tel: 225-3265 fax: 225-9215
TEXAS (7/27)
Charles Wilson 2256 RH 20515-4302 tel: 225-2401 fax: 2251764
Steve Bartlett 1113 LH 20515-4303 tel: 225-4201
Ralph M. Hall 236 CH 20515-4304 tel: 225-6673 fax: 225-3332
John Bryant 208 CH 20515-4305 tel: 225-2231 fax: 225-9721
Joe L. Barton 1225 LH 20515-4306 tel: 225-2002 fax: 225-3052
Bill Archer 1135 LH 20515-4307 tel: 225-2571 fax: 225-4381
Jack Fields 108 CH 20515-4308 tel: 225-4901 fax: 225-6899
Jack Brooks 2449 RH 20515-4309 tel: 225-6565 fax: 225-1584
Marvin Leath 336 CH 20515-4311 tel: 225-6105 fax: 225-0350
Jim Wright 1236 LH 20515-4312 tel: 225-5071
Bill Sarpalius 1223 LH 20515-4313 tel: 225-3706 fax: 225-6142
Greg Laughlin 1022 LH 20515-4134 tel: 225-2831
E (Kika) de la Garza 1401 LH 20515-4315 tel: 225-2531 fax: 225-2533
Charles W. Stenholm 1226 LH 20515-4317 tel: 225-6605 fax: 225-2234
Larry Combest 1527 LH 20515-4319 tel: 225-4005 fax: 225-9615
Henry B. Gonzalez 2413 RH 20515-4320 tel: 225-3236 fax: 225-1915
Lamar Smith 422 CH 20515-4321 tel: 225-4236 fax: 225-8628
Tom Delay 308 CH 20515-4322 tel: 225-5951 fax: 225-4251
Albert G. Bustamante 1116 LH 20515-4323 tel: 225-4551
Solomon P. Ortiz 1524 LH 20515-4327 tel: 225-7742 fax: 226-1134
UTAH (1/3)
James V. Hansen 2421 RH 20515-4401 tel: 225-0453 fax: 225-5857
Howard C. Nielson 1122 LH 20515-4403 tel: 225-7751 fax: 226-1223
VIRGINIA (3/10)
Herbert H. Bateman 1230 LH 20515-4601 tel: 225-4261 fax: 225-4382
Owen B. Pickett 1429 LH 20515-4602 tel: 225-4215 fax: 225-4218
Thomas J. Bliley, Jr. 213 CH 20515-4603 tel: 225-2815
Norman Sisisky 426 CH 20515-4604 tel: 225-6365 fax: 225-1469
D. French Slaughter, Jr.1404 LH 20515-4607 tel: 225-6561 fax: 225-0500
Stan Parris 2434 RH 20515-4608 tel: 225-4376 fax: 225-0017
Rick Boucher 428 CH 20515-4609 tel: 225-3861
WASHINGTON (3/8)
Al Swift 1502 LH 20515-4702 tel: 225-2605
Sid Morrison 1434 LH 20515-4704 tel: 225-5816 fax: 225-9293
Thomas S. Foley 1201 LH 20515-4705 tel: 225-2006
Norman D. Dicks 2429 RH 20515-4706 tel: 225-5916 fax: 226-1176
Rod Chandler 223 CH 20515-4708 tel: 225-7761 fax: 225-0035
WEST VIRGINIA (1/4)
Alan B. Mollohan 437 CH 20515-4801 tel: 225-4172 fax: 225-7564
Harley O. Staggers, Jr. 1504 LH 20515-4802 tel: 225-4331 fax: 225-2962
Nick Joe Rahall II
WISCONSIN (4/9)
Les Aspin 2336 RH 20515-4901 tel: 225-3031
Steve Gunderson 227 CH 20515-4903 tel: 225-5506 fax: 225-6195
David Obey 2462 RH 20515-4907 tel: 225-3365 fax: 225-0561
Toby Roth 2352 RH 20515-4908 tel: 225-5665 fax: 225-0087
Jim Sensenbrenner, Jr. 2444 RH 20515-4909 tel: 225-5101 fax: 225-3190
From polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!bsu-cs!xiong Sun Jul 16 12:57:48 PDT 1989
Article 19993 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!bsu-cs!xiong
>From: xiong@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Bo Xiong)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Toronto Rally Planned By CCDC Postponed To July 9
Summary: I am helping to post this
Message-ID: <8041@bsu-cs.bsu.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 19:24:11 GMT
Reply-To: xiong@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Bo Xiong)
Organization: CS Dept, Ball St U, Muncie, Indiana
Lines: 15
>From FYCHU@McMaster.CA Mon Jul 3 14:16:44 1989
===============================================================================
Please post the following for Toronto's CCDC:
--------------------------------------------
The July 8 rally originally planned by Toronto's Concerned Chinese
Canadians Supporting the Democratic Movement in China has been changed
to July 9, 2:00 pm in Toronto's Nathan Philip's Square (infront of
City Hall). The rally will be followed by a march to the Chinese
Consulate. Four witnesses of the Tiananmen Massacre are scheduled to
speak. The Sunday rally is organized in response to the call for
the one month comemoration of the June 4 massacre.
===============================================================================
.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!usc!bbn!rochester!uhura.cc.rochester.edu!ur-valhalla!wkau Sun Jul 16 12:58:27 PDT 1989
Article 19994 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!usc!bbn!rochester!uhura.cc.rochester.edu!ur-valhalla!wkau
>From: wkau@valhalla.ee.rochester.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: soc.culture.china; NOT s.c.iran
Message-ID: <2300@valhalla.ee.rochester.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 21:27:56 GMT
Sender: usenet@valhalla.ee.rochester.edu
Distribution: usa
Organization: URochester Department of Electrical Engineering
Lines: 8
Isn't this soc.culture.china? Why did I see something about Iran?
Did I miss any earlier discussion or what? Please do not congest
the net with irrelevant mailings :p
Wing Au, wkau@ee.rochester.edu
----------------------------------
Wing K. Au wkau@ee.rochester.edu
From polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!ames!rex!uflorida!haven!uvaarpa!hudson!jl7q Sun Jul 16 13:00:43 PDT 1989
Article 19999 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!ames!rex!uflorida!haven!uvaarpa!hudson!jl7q
>From: jl7q@hudson.acc.virginia.edu (li jinghong)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Send T-shirts to President Bush : A young man blocked the tanks
Message-ID: <1707@hudson.acc.virginia.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 21:30:36 GMT
Reply-To: jl7q@hudson.acc.Virginia.EDU (li jinghong)
Organization: University of Virginia, Charlottesville
Lines: 16
Send T-shirts to President Bush
I sent two T-shirts to President Bush and Mrs. Bush
Picture : A young man blocked the tanks near
Tainanmen Square on June 5, 1989
Read : both in Chinese and English CHINA SOUL
and asked them to wear the T-shirts when they are jogging.
I wrote to say thanks for what they have done to help
Chinese people both inside China and abroad. And I asked
President Bush to do something more.
From polya!shelby!decwrl!sun-barr!apple!ames!ncar!umigw!jherr Sun Jul 16 13:01:40 PDT 1989
Article 20002 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!sun-barr!apple!ames!ncar!umigw!jherr
>From: jherr@umigw.MIAMI.EDU (jack herrington)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: List of Co-sponsors upon July, 3rd
Keywords: Posted for Dartmouth College
Message-ID: <407@umigw.MIAMI.EDU>
Date: 3 Jul 89 22:23:22 GMT
Lines: 9
I am asked by Chinese students of Dartmouth College to post the
following message. Today (7/3) they met with the foreign assistant of
Nancy Pelosi. He expressed their admiration on the lobby efficiency of
Chinese students all over the country and encouraged Chinese students to
continue their efforts.
I have the list of 158 cosponsors of HR 2712 as of June 29, 1989. I do
not know whether some people have already posted it on scc, if not I can
do it.
You can also send your demand via e-mail.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ucdavis!iris!matloff Sun Jul 16 13:03:16 PDT 1989
Article 20005 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ucdavis!iris!matloff
>From: matloff@iris.ucdavis.edu (Norm Matloff)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: The Crisis in Mainland China - The Possible Outcome
Message-ID: <4820@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 23:36:38 GMT
References: <15134@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Sender: uucp@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu
Reply-To: matloff@iris.ucdavis.edu (Norm Matloff)
Distribution: usa
Organization: U.C. Davis - Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
Lines: 76
In article <15134@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> peng@euler.berkeley.edu (Huei Peng) writes:
>In article <4812@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> matloff@iris.ucdavis.edu (Norm Matloff)
writes :
>
>[Referring to Factor #1, the 50 years of Japanese colonial development
>of Taiwan prior to 1945:]
>Ooops, I made mistake, It should be referred to Factor 0.(small is beauty)
>So, if being a colony is a good thing, I am sure the Kuan, Porto Rico,
>Phillipine that are(were) under the USA, as colonies (or at least kind of),
>should be more successful.
The Philippines is missing Factor 0 (small, easily managed) too.
All 3 places are missing the other factors, especially the key one of
special entrepeneurial talent (Factor 4).
The various factors do interact. None of them is sufficient on its own.
>Come on, you know this is not my point, I emphasized that the economy of
>Taiwan improved much more faster after 1970, and I pointed out that the
>intention and projects promoted by the ROC government plays a far more
>important role than USA aid, otherwise why the "take-off" period did not
>happen between 1950-1965 ? You weight the USA aid TOO MUCH.
I am taking it as one of many factors. Certainly that aid at least
kept Taiwan from sliding backwards during that time, thus maintaining
a foundation for later improvement.
You yourself admit that the "take-off" was DELAYED by the actions of
KMT, specifically Chiang Kai-Shek's military expenditures, which ran
something like 85% of the national budget.
[Note: I am not getting into the issue of whether these high expenditures
were justified. I am just citing your own comment on the reason for
delayed "take-off."]
>something that is not true. If the AMOUNT is so important, Vietnam should
>have a MUCH MORE successful economy, since the money spent on her is
>more than 500 billions.
Very little of that money went to Vietnamese, and of the little that did,
a lot wound up in the pockets of corrupt officials. Most of the money
was spend on AMERICAN people and corporations, and in fact the U.S.
economy grew a lot during that time.
>Heavy indeed. If you don't mind, I would like to imitate Norm's tone,
>and comment on the economy of USA.
I don't think your factors listed (e.g. slavery) are wrong. They are
definitely real factors. Moreover, I certainly would NOT credit the U.S.
government for America's early economic growth.
>never underestimated. (Also not overestimated, I think Norm is overestimating
>Hongkong, if look at the GNP of last year only)
Someone posted information for the last 5 years, and HK was ahead of Taiwan
during that time too. By the way, I believe that HK's economy was quite
weak after World War II.
>As Chaung pointed out, amount iis not the only thing, otherwise many Arabian
>countries should be adored by Taiwan.
Taiwan is justifiably proud of its low Gini index, meaning fewer extremes
in income. I don't know whether HK's Gini index is lower or higher, but
I would certainly say it's comparable. I'm sure that Arab countries have
a much higher Gini index.
Nobel Prize-winning economist Milton Friedman LOVES Hong Kong's economic
policies. He is lukewarm-to-negative about Taiwan's.
[By the way, note to Chuang: Factor #6 was not intended as a real factor.
Please note that I said that I had included it on a "tongue-in-cheek"
basis.]
Norm
From polya!shelby!rutgers!columbia!cunixc!cunixd.cc.columbia.edu!seymour Sun Jul 16 13:04:05 PDT 1989
Article 20008 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!columbia!cunixc!cunixd.cc.columbia.edu!seymour
>From: seymour@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (James D. Seymour)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Prisoners: Update "A" to List 2
Message-ID: <1650@cunixc.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 23:22:11 GMT
Sender: news@cunixc.cc.columbia.edu
Reply-To: seymour@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (James D. Seymour)
Distribution: na
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 229
The first paragraph is a republication from a notice of Ed Lai.
The remainder (the fully-capitalized material) is an update of Amnesty
International's "Urgent Action" #205. (For earlier information on the
prisoners discussed), see article #21734--Prisoner List 2).
Lai: "according to today [Jul 3] 's World Journal. The famous Taiwaness
reporter, Xu2 Lu4, who was one of the first ones [who] went to Mainland, said
another Taiwaness reporter was meeting with Wang Dan in Beijing. They found
they were followed by police. They ran away. That reporter was arrested. Xu
believes Wang Dan is arrested also."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
REF: 6389 DATE: 890703 TIME: 17:20
EXTERNAL (FOR GENERAL DISTRIBUTION) AI INDEX: ASA 17/51/89
DISTR: UA/SC
3 JULY 1989
FURTHER INFORMATION ON UA 205/89 (ASA 17/43/89, 26 JUNE) - ARRESTS
PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA: BEIJING INTELLECTUALS, STUDENTS, ETC.
UPDATE ON : LI XIANGLU, ECONOMIST:
BAO ZUNXIN
CHEN YIZHI
THOSE STILL DETAINED : LIU GANG
(BUT NO NEW INFORMATION) MA SHAOHUA
WAN QIANJIN
CHEN YANG
AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL HAS LEARNT THAT LI XIANGLU, AN ECONOMIST AND
HEAD OF THE INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE OF CHINA INTERNATIONAL TRUST AND
INVESTMENT COMPANY, WAS NOT ARRESTED AS PREVIOUSLY REPORTED IN THE
HONG KONG PRESS. ACCORDING TO SOME SOURCES, HE HAS LEFT CHINA AND IS
NOW IN THE USA.
HOWEVER, UNOFFICIAL CHINESE SOURCES IN BEIJING HAVE REPORTED THE
ARREST OF CHEN YIZHI AND BAO ZUNXIN, ACCORDING TO UNITED PRESS
INTERNATIONAL ON 30 JUNE. THEIR ARREST HAD BEEN REPORTED LAST WEEK
IN THE HONG KONG PRESS. THREE OTHER INTELLECTUALS AMONG SEVEN
REPORTEDLY NAMED IN 'NON-PUBLIC' ARREST WARRANTS HAVE ALSO BEEN
ARRESTED, ACCORDING THE THE SAME SOURCES, BRINGING TO FIVE THE NUMBER
OF THOSE REPORTED DETAINED AMONG THE SEVEN. THE TWO OTHERS,
INCLUDING LI XIANGLU (NAMED ABOVE), ARE SAID TO BE IN THE USA.
AS FAR AS IS KNOWN, THE OTHERS NAMED IN UA 205/89 ARE STILL
DETAINED.
FURTHER RECOMMENDED ACTION: AIRMAIL LETTERS:
- EXPRESSING CONCERN ABOUT CONTINUING REPORTS OF ARBITRARY ARRESTS
AND URGING THE AUTHORITIES TO RELEASE IMMEDIATELY ALL THOSE DETAINED
FOR THE PEACEFUL EXERCISE OF THEIR FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHTS:
- URGING THE AUTHORITIES TO MAKE PUBLIC THE NAMES, REASONS FOR
ARREST AND PLACES OF DETENTION OF ALL THOSE DETAINED IN CONNECTION
WITH RECENT PROTESTS, TO ENSURE THAT THEY ARE SAFEGUARDED AGAINST
POSSIBLE TORTURE OR ILL-TREATMENT IN CUSTODY, AND THAT THEY ARE
BROUGHT TO TRIAL ON RECOGNIZABLE CRIMINAL CHARGES OR RELEASED:
- ASKING THE AUTHORITIES SPECIFICALLY FOR INFORMATION ABOUT THE
CIRCUMSTANCES AND WHEREABOUTS OF THOSE REPORTED DETAINED WHO ARE
MENTIONED ABOVE.
APPEALS TO:
WANG FANG BUZHANG MINISTER WANG FANG
BEIJINGSHI MINISTER OF PUBLIC SECURITY
ZHONGHUA RENMIN GONGHEGUO
PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA
LIU FUZHI JIANCHAZHANG PROCURATOR GENERATOR LIU FUZHI
BEIJINGSHI
ZHONGHUA RENMIN GONGHEGUO
PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA
CHEN XITONG MAYOR CHEN XITONG
BEIJINGSHI RENMIN ZHENGFU BEIJING MUNICIPALITY
BEIJINGSHI
ZHONGHUA RENMIN GONGHEGUO
PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA
COPIES TO: DIPLOMATIC REPRESENTATIVES OF THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF
CHINA AND TO THE OFFICE OF THE NEW CHINA NEWS AGENCY (XINHUA) IN YOUR
COUNTRY.
PLEASE SEND APPEALS IMMEDIATELY. CHECK WITH THE INTERNATIONAL
SECRETARIAT, OR YOUR SECTION OFFICE, IF SENDING APPEALS AFTER 14
AUGUST 1989.
28502 AMNSTY G
. /
REF: 6440 DATE: 890703 TIME: 18:26
EXTERNAL (FOR GENERAL DISTRIBUTION) AI INDEX: ASA 17/52/89
DISTR: UA/SC
UA 218/89 ARRESTS 3 JULY 1989
PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA: MORE INTELLECTUALS REPORTED ARRESTED:
WANG JUNTAO ZHANG WEIGUO
SU XIAOKANG YU HAOCHENG
CHEN ZIMING GAO YU
WANG RUOWANG DU RUNSHENG
ZHANG WEIGUO GAO SHAN
BAO TONG
WANG JUNTAO, AN ACADEMIC AT THE RESEARCH INSTITUTE FOR ECONOMIC,
TECHNOLOGICAL AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT (RIETSD): SU XIAOKANG, A TEACHER
AT BEIJING BROADCASTING INSTITUTE AND AUTHOR OF THE CONTROVERSIAL
'RIVER ELEGY' TELEVISION SERIES: AND CHEN ZIMING, ONE OF THE HEADS OF
RIETSD, HAVE REPORTEDLY BEEN ARRESTED (ASIA WATCH OF 30 JUNE, CITING
UPI). PRIVATE SOURCES HAD EARLIER REPORTED TO AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL
THAT WANG JUNTAO AND CHEN ZIMING HAD DISAPPEARED, BUT COULD NOT
CONFIRM THEIR ARREST. THE THREE NAMED ABOVE ARE AMONG SEVEN
INTELLECTUALS FOR WHOM THE AUTHORITIES HAVE REPORTEDLY ISSUED 'NON-
PUBLIC' ARREST WARRANTS. OF THE SEVEN, TWO OTHERS ARE BELIEVED TO BE
DETAINED, WHILE THE LAST TWO ARE REPORTED TO HAVE LEFT CHINA (SEE UA
205/89 OF 26 JUNE AND UPDATE OF 3 JULY).
ACCORDING TO THE SOUTH CHINA MORNING POST OF 30 JUNE, OTHER
PROMINENT INTELLECTUALS ARE BELIEVED TO BE DETAINED, INCLUDING WANG
RUOWANG, A SHANGHAI-BASED WRITER WHO WAS EXPELLED FROM THE CHINESE
COMMUNIST PARTY (CCP) IN JANUARY 1987 DURING AN 'ANTI-BOURGEOIS
LIBERALISATION' CAMPAIGN: ZHANG WEIGUO, A JOURNALIST: AND YU
HAOCHENG, A LEGAL SCHOLAR AND ADVOCATE OF RADICAL REFORMS WHO HAD
ALSO BEEN CRITICIZED IN 1987. GAO YU, A WOMAN JOURNALIST AT THE
PEOPLE'S DAILY, IS REPORTED TO BE MISSING AND, ACCORDING TO SOME
SOURCES, HAS ALREADY BEEN ARRESTED.
DU RUNSHENG, HEAD OF THE STATE COUNCIL RURAL DEVELOPMENT
RESEARCH INSTITUTE (RDRI), IS REPORTED TO HAVE BEEN ARRESTED BEFORE
THE MILITARY CRACKDOWN OF 4 JUNE, ACCORDING TO A RELIABLE SOURCE. HE
WAS REPORTEDLY ACCUSED OF BEING ONE OF THE 'BLACK HANDS' OF THE
DISGRACED FORMER PARTY GENERAL-SECRETARY ZHAO ZIYANG.
GAO SHAN, A MEMBER OF THE REFORM RESEARCH INSTITUTE (RRI) OF THE
CCP CENTRAL COMMITTEE IS REPORTED TO HAVE BEEN ARRESTED IN THE PAST
FEW DAYS.
BAO TONG, A MEMBER OF THE CCP POLITICAL BUREAU AND CLOSE
ASSOCIATE OF ZHAO ZIYANG IS ALSO UNDER ARREST, ACCORDING TO THE HONG
KONG PAPER WEN WEI PO OF 25 JUNE. WEN WEI PO REPORTED THAT HE WAS
CHARGED WITH LEAKING PARTY SECRETS AND SUPPORTING THE 'COUNTER-
REVOLUTIONARY TURMOIL'. ACCORDING TO THE NEWSPAPER, THIS LATER
CHARGE RELATED MAINLY TO HIS SUPPORT OF SEVERAL RESEARCH CENTRES
WHOSE LEADING MEMBERS HAD EXPRESSED SYMPATHY FOR THE STUDENT
MOVEMENT.
THE ARREST OF THOSE NAMED ABOVE HAS NOT BEEN CONFIRMED BY
OFFICIAL SOURCES. AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL IS CONCERNED THAT, IF THEY
ARE DETAINED AS REPORTED, THEY MAY BE PUT UNDER STRONG PRESSURE TO
PROVIDE INFORMATION ABOUT THEIR INVOLVEMENT AND THAT OF OTHERS IN
THE STUDENT PROTESTS. SINCE THE CRACKDOWN IN EARLY JUNE, THE
AUTHORITIES HAVE STATED MANY TIMES THAT STUDENTS WERE 'MANIPULATED'
BY A 'SMALL NUMBER' OF PEOPLE WITH 'ULTERIOR MOTIVES' WHO MAY BE HELD
RESPONSIBLE FOR ENCOURAGING OR SUPPORTING WHAT THE GOVERNMENT TERMED
THE 'COUNTER-REVOLUTIONARY REBELLION'.
RECOMMENDED ACTION: TELEXES/AIRMAIL LETTERS:
- EXPRESSING CONCERN ABOUT CONTINUING REPORTS OF ARBITRARY ARRESTS
AND URGING THE AUTHORITIES TO RELEASE IMMEDIATELY ALL THOSE DETAINED
FOR THE PEACEFUL EXERCISE OF THEIR FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHTS:
- URGING THE AUTHORITIES TO MAKE PUBLIC THE NAMES, REASONS FOR
ARREST AND PLACES OF DETENTION OF ALL THOSE DETAINED IN CONNECTION
WITH RECENT PROTESTS, TO ENSURE THAT THEY ARE SAFEGUARDED AGAINST
POSSIBLE TORTURE OR ILL-TREATMENT IN CUSTODY, AND THAT THEY ARE
BROUGHT TO TRIAL ON RECOGNIZABLE CRIMINAL CHARGES OR RELEASED:
- ASKING THE AUTHORITIES SPECIFICALLY FOR INFORMATION ABOUT THE
CIRCUMSTANCES AND WHEREABOUTS OF THOSE REPORTED DETAINED WHO ARE
MENTIONED ABOVE.
APPEALS TO:
LI PENG ZONGLI PRIME MINISTER LI PENG
GUOWUYUAN BEIJINGSHI
ZHONGHUA RENMIN GONGHEGUO
PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA
TELEXES: 22478 MFERT CN (PLEASE FORWARD TO PRIME MINISTER LI)
WANG FANG BUZHANG MINISTER WANG FANG
BEIJINGSHI MINISTER OF PUBLIC SECURITY
ZHONGHUA RENMIN GONGHEGUO
PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA
TELEXES: 22478 MFERT CN (PLEASE FORWARD TO MINISTER WANG FANG)
LIU FUZHI JIANCHAZHANG PROCURATOR GENERATOR LIU FUZHI
BEIJINGSHI
ZHONGHUA RENMIN GONGHEGUO
PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA
TELEXES: 22478 MFERT CN (PLEASE FORWARD TO PROCURATOR GENERAL LIU)
CHEN XITONG MAYOR CHEN XITONG
BEIJINGSHI RENMIN ZHENGFU BEIJING MUNICIPALITY
BEIJINGSHI
ZHONGHUA RENMIN GONGHEGUO
PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA
TELEXES: 210217 FOAGB CN (PLEASE FORWARD TO MAYOR CHEN XITONG)
COPIES TO: DIPLOMATIC REPRESENTATIVES OF THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF
CHINA AND TO THE OFFICE OF THE NEW CHINA NEWS AGENCY (XINHUA) IN YOUR
COUNTRY.
PLEASE SEND APPEALS IMMEDIATELY. CHECK WITH THE INTERNATIONAL
SECRETARIAT, OR YOUR SECTION OFFICE, IF SENDING APPEALS AFTER 14
AUGUST 1989.
-=<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Jim Seymour a/k/a Sima Jin4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=-
| MCI Mail: 1640044 Internet: seymour@cunixc.cc.columbia.edu |
| Fax: 212-749-1497 Backroom BBS: china wasp |
| Disclaimer: Sender alone assumes responsibility for contents of above. |
↑~
↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑
From polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watmath!watdragon!violet!rzhu Sun Jul 16 13:04:31 PDT 1989
Article 20009 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watmath!watdragon!violet!rzhu
>From: rzhu@violet.waterloo.edu (Rupert Zhu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Passport Problem: Deferral of Enforced Departure (Indexed S-2)
Keywords: Official US INS Document Regarding "Deferral of Enforced Departure"
Message-ID: <14853@watdragon.waterloo.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 16:47:18 GMT
Sender: daemon@watdragon.waterloo.edu
Lines: 98
========== Information From the Author of Passport Problem Series ============
Text Of Cable Released By INS Deputy Commissioner James L Buck
--------------------------------------------------------------
June 7, 1989
Re: Deferral of enforced departure for nationals of
the People's Republic of China (PRC)
The Attorney General has directed and authorized the service to defer
enforcing the departure for nationals of the People's Republic of China (PRC).
Effective immediately, the following policy shall be implemented relative
to PRC nationals who were in the United States as of June 6, 1989. Service
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
action to enforce departure to the PRC shall not be taken prior to June 5,
1990, of PRC nationals who indicate an unwillingness to return to the PRC at
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
the present time. This directive shall not apply to:
1) PRC nationals who have not evidenced an unwillingness to return to the PRC;
2) PRC nationals who are residents of a third country;
3) PRC nationals who have been convicted of any criminal act in the United
States; or
4) PRC nationals who arrive in the United States after June 6, 1989.
↑↑↑↑↑
PRC NATIONALS MAINTAINING NONIMMIGRANT STATUS. Extension of temporary stay
may be granted to those nonimmigrants who qualify for extensions. If an
application for extension is denied, the PRC national's departure shall not be
enforced prior to June 5, 1990. A PRC national who is maintaining a non-
immigrant status may request that his/her nonimmigrant status be terminated and
that he/she be granted a deferral of enforced departure under this directive.
The PRC national shall be notified in writing that his/her nonimmigrant status
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
will not be reinstated after he/she has been granted a deferral of enforced
↑↑↑
departure.
DEPORTABLE PRC NATIONALS. PRC nationals who are located as deportable
aliens will be permitted to remain until June 5, 1990. In cases where OSCs*
have been issued against PRC nationals, but hearings have not commenced, the
service shall seek postponement of the hearings until after June 5, 1990. If
hearing have commenced, they shall go forward to completion; however, departure
shall not be enforced before June 5, 1990. In case where a final order of
deportation has been entered, departure shall not be enforced before June 5,
1990. These provisions shall not apply to PRC nationals who have not evidenced
↑↑↑
an unwillingness to return to the PRC; nor to PRC nationals who are residents
of a third country; nor to PRC nationals who have been convicted of any
criminal act in the United States. Deportable aliens who are within one of
these exceptions shall be processed according to regular procedures.
EXCLUDABLE PRC NATIONALS. PRC nationals who arrived in the United States
before June 6, 1989, but who have been referred for exclusion proceedings will
be permitted to remain until June 5, 1990. In cases where aliens have been
paroled, the paroles may be extended to June 5, 1990. If exclusion proceedings
are or have been initiated against PRC nationals, but hearing have not
commenced, the service shall seek postponement of the hearings until after
June 5, 1990. If hearings have commenced, they shall go forward to completion;
however, the departure shall not be enforced before June 5, 1990. In cases
where a final order of exclusion has been entered, departure shall not be
enforced before June 5, 1990. These provisions shall not apply to PRC
nationals who have not evidenced an unwillingness to return to the PRC; nor
to PRC nationals who are residents of a third country; nor to have convicted of
any criminal act in the United States. Excludable aliens within one of these
three exceptions shall be processed according to regular procedures.
REQUESTS FOR CLEARANCE OF REMOVAL TO PRC. In any case in which a district
director processes to enforce the departure to the PRC of a PRC national who
has indicated an unwillingness to return to the PRC, the district director
shall refer the matter to the appropriate regional commissioner for
concurrence.
WORK AUTHORIZATION. PRC nationals whose enforced departure has been
deferred under this directive until June 5, 1990, including those whose paroles
have been extended, may obtain evidence of employment authorization as provided
by 8 C.F.R. 274a.12(a)(11).
ASYLUM REQUESTS. Applications submitted to district directors for asylum
under 8 C.F.R 208 shall be processed routinely. If an application is denied,
however, the PRC national's departure to the PRC shall not be enforced prior to
June 5, 1990.
ARRIVALS AFTER JUNE 6, 1989. PRC nationals who arrive in or enter the
United States after June 6, 1989, and whose cases are referred for exclusion or
deportation shall be processed under current procedures. Departure to the PRC
will be enforced if appropriate.
THE POLICIES OUTLINED IN THIS DIRECTIVE WILL APPLY UNTIL JUNE 5, 1990, OR
UNTIL OTHERWISE NOTIFIED.
* Order to Show Case --- order for the initiation of deportation proceedings
issued by the district director of the INS.
============================ The End Of S-2 =================================
,
From polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watmath!watdragon!violet!rzhu Sun Jul 16 13:04:53 PDT 1989
Article 20010 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watmath!watdragon!violet!rzhu
>From: rzhu@violet.waterloo.edu (Rupert Zhu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Passport Problem: Official Q/A About Deferred Departure (S-3)
Keywords: Who should request it, what are the advantages and disadvantages
Message-ID: <14854@watdragon.waterloo.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 16:53:08 GMT
Sender: daemon@watdragon.waterloo.edu
Lines: 92
========== Information From The Author Of Passport Problem Series ============
Answers to Questions Asked by Chinese Students in U.S.
------------------------------------------------------
The National Association for Foreign Student Affairs has provided the following
answers to questions about new U.S. visa policies for Chinese citizens now at
American colleges and universities. The information was based on instructions
issued this month by the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
1. If a student or scholar's program comes to an end before June 5, 1990, what
should he/she do? How does one apply for deferred departure?
A student or scholar whose non-immigrant status comes to an end before June
5, 1990, may elect to defer his/her departure from the United States until this
date. As of this writing, the INS has not announced the procedure they will
use for issuance of deferred departure and work authorization.
If the student or scholar is eligible to apply for an extension of stay or a
transfer to a new academic program before June 5, 1990, he/she should follow
the normal application procedures.
2. If a student or scholar's program does not end until after June 5, 1990,
what should he/she do?
A student or scholar whose non-immigrant status does not end until after
June 5, 1990, is not required to do anything at this time. However, according
to the INS cable, "a PRC national who is maintaining a non-immigrant status may
request that his/her non-immigrant status be terminated and that he/she be
granted a deferral of enforced departure under this directive." Note: a
student or scholar who chooses this option and who later wishes to continue
as a non-immigrant student will not be reinstated to student status.
If the student or scholar is eligible to apply for an extension of stay or a
transfer to a new academic program before June 5, 1990, he/she should follow
the normal application procedures.
3. What's the meaning of "deferred departure" in general term? What are its
advantages and disadvantages?
Under the current situation, the INS has defined deferred departure as a
means for those who cannot extend their non-immigrant status and who have
indicated an unwillingness to return home at this time, to remain in the United
States until June 5, 1990 (i.e., a PH.D. graduate in J-1 exchange visitor
status who has completed the 18 months of practical training). For those who
remain in the United States under deferred departure, the INS has stated that
employment will be authorized. However, the exact process for this
authorization has not yet been announced.
At this time, it appears that if a student or scholar requests deferred
departure from an INS district office he/she will not be reinstated again to
non-immigration status at a later date (i.e., an F-1 or J-1 student who has
completed the academic program as well as practical training, is given deferred
departure by the INS, and then decides to continue with another academic
program that would run beyond June 5, 1990 may be prohibited from doing so
without leaving and re-entering the United States).
4. How do the provisions of deferred departure apply to F-2 and J-2 dependents?
The INS memo states that deferred departure applies to "PRC nationals who
were in the United States as of June 6, 1989." Although not specifically
stated, it is assumed that the benefit of work authorization under deferred
departure will also apply to F-2's and J-2's. Confirmation is still needed
from INS, however, on this point.
5. What's the definition of asylum? What are the advantages and disadvantages
of this option under current circumstances?
According to section 101(a)(42) of the Immigration and Nationality Act,
anyone currently in the United States may request asylum " ... who is unable or
unwilling to return [to that person's country of nationality or country of
habitual residence] ... because of persecution or a well-founded fear of
persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a
particular social group, or political opinion ...." An asylum application is
made on INS form I-589 and is filed with the district director's office. NAFSA
advises that this serious step only be undertaken after consulting with an
attorney who specializes in immigration law.
The INS has stated in its cable that if an asylum application is filed at
this time and denied, the applicant will not be forced to depart the United
States prior to June 5, 1990. Applicants who have received a denial on an
asylum request, however, will probably not be able to be reinstated to non-
immigrant status.
============================ The End Of S-3 ================================
,
From polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watmath!watdragon!violet!rzhu Sun Jul 16 13:05:12 PDT 1989
Article 20011 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watmath!watdragon!violet!rzhu
>From: rzhu@violet.waterloo.edu (Rupert Zhu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Passport Problem: Suggestions & Q/A About Deferred Departure (S-4)
Keywords: Last alternative, Invalid passport, Exception, B-1 to F-1/J-1.
Message-ID: <14855@watdragon.waterloo.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 16:58:10 GMT
Sender: daemon@watdragon.waterloo.edu
Lines: 123
=========== Information From The Author Of Passport Problem Series =============
Many Chinese students in the U.S. have raised concerns about our status and
possible actions we should take given the current turmoil in China. I would
like to be sure that we all have the same information concerning recent U.S.
government statements to the effect that we will not be required to return to
China at this time. I also would like to ensure that all of us are aware of
the recommendations made in this article are based on the best information I
can get from public sources.
You have read the "Official Document of US INS Regarding Deferred Departure"
(S-2) and the "Answers to Questions Asked by Chinese Students in U.S." (S-3)
posted before this article. There are more suggestions from attorneys and
foreign student advisors, I have summarized their comments and recommendations
as follows:
1. For the time being the best route for you to take is NOT to formally
indicate unwillingness to return to China nor to request asylum but rather
to try to continue in your present status. The primary reason for this is
that once a student or visiting scholar is granted "deferral of enforced
departure," it will be impossible to regain non-immigrant status and very
difficult to shift to IMMIGRANT status without first returning to China.
No one is going to be forced to leave the U.S. before June 5, 1990 in any
case. If you formally declare that you wish to be granted deferral of
enforced departure, you will have to return to China next June unless
deadline is extended. So, this is the last alternative to take.
2. While deferral of enforced departure is available to anyone, asylum will be
granted only if it can clearly documented that the individual is likely to
be in danger if he or she returns, and it is good only so long as the U.S.
State Department and INS feel the danger continues. In other words, the
status is reviewed at regular intervals; putting oneself on record by
seeking asylum may do more harm than good if INS later decides it is safe
for those granted asylum to return.
3. Following normal procedures to prolong a stay here may achieve the same end
as the request for deferral or asylum without the risk. In addition to the
usual extensions of temporary stay for completing your education, for some
students who have completed their degrees they can obtain a work
authorization for up to 18 months of employment relevant to the
individual's field of study that will also defer departure.
4. While this the current recommendation, it is hard to be sure just what to
suggest at present because so many things are still up in the air. What
is being heard is that everyone should wait for the dust to settle in China
so a good assessment of the long range effects of the current troubles can
be made before taking any drastic step. At present there are simply too
many rumors around for us to feel comfortable with suggesting a change from
normal procedures. For example, the U.S. Congress is considering some bills
that will waive the two-year home country physical stay for Chinese students
and scholars on J-1 status. What effect that will have, if the bill gets
passed, isn't at all clear. And so on.
Next are the answers to some relevant questions:
Q: Can someone who has applied for and been granted deferred departure by INS,
travel outside of the U.S. for a brief visit and re-enter?
A: No. Individuals who have chosen deferred departure do not have a status
that allows them to travel out of U.S. and to be readmitted by INS at a port
of entry. In addition, those in deferred departure do not qualify for
"advanced parole" --- an INS measure that does allow departure and re-entry
for aliens in specific situations.
Q: Can someone who was in the U.S. as a student/scholar before June 6, 1989
qualify for deferred departure, even if he/she was temporarily out of the
U.S. at the time of the announcement (i.e. for visit abroad, research
project, etc.)?
A: No. In order to qualify for deferred departure, one must have been
physically present in the U.S. at the time of the announcement on June 6,
1989. Although student/scholar may have made his/her original entry before
this date and was absent from the U.S. for a temporary period, this does not
allow the individual to qualify.
(Note: INS is really taking a hard line here --- to the point of being
unduly harsh, in our opinion.)
Q: What about those students/scholars who are not electing deferred departure
at the present time, but who simply plan to continue in their academic
programs? Many of these individuals may need to renew their passports in
the future, but are afraid of making contact with the embassy or consulates
(i.e., passport renewal may be denied, or consular officer may put their
name on a list). Will INS make any exceptions to the regulation stating
that aliens must have valid passports for extension of stay requests?
A: INS examinations division is aware of the problem. However, they are not
willing at this point to make any policy changes allowing an exception to
the regulation for PRC nationals. Precedence was cited for previous
situations where exception of this nature was granted to nationals of other
countries, so INS may be prepared to do something in the future, but no word
yet.
Q: Can a student or scholar who has elected to take deferred departure, take
courses at an academic institution or enroll in an academic program?
A: The decision to allow someone in deferred departure to take courses or enroll
in an academic program is mainly an institutional decision, not one that INS
would get involved in. However, under deferred departure the individual does
not have a student status. In addition, under current INS policy once
deferred departure ends on June 5, 1990, the individual would not be
reinstated.
Q: Can a PRC national, who were in the U.S. as of June 6, 1989 and on B-1
visitor/tourist visa, change their status from B-1 to F-1/J-1 (student or
scholar status)?
A: As long as the individual stays on his/her non-immigrant status, i.e.,
remains on B-1 status, he/she is eligible to apply for the change of status
from visitor/tourist to student/scholar by following normal application
procedure. If the individual elects to take the deferred departure (e.g.,
if he/she is denied for the extension of stay on B-1 visa, he/she have to
take the deferred departure to remain in the U.S.), his/her non-immigrant
status will be terminated, therefore the individual cannot apply for the
change of status.
=============================== The End Of S-4 =================================
,
From polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!lai Sun Jul 16 13:06:20 PDT 1989
Article 20013 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!lai
>From: lai@Apple.COM (Ed Lai)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Don't be too pessimistic!!!
Message-ID: <32854@apple.Apple.COM>
Date: 4 Jul 89 00:34:00 GMT
References: <32743@apple.Apple.COM> <367@ai.cs.utexas.edu> <4783@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> <667@gamera.cs.utexas.edu> <4787@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> <670@thunderbird.cs.utexas.edu> <4798@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> <678@valverde.cs.utexas.edu> <25950@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>
<32832@apple
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA
Lines: 40
In article <4818@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> matloff@iris.ucdavis.edu (Norm Matloff) writes:
>
>*>The paragraph of mine which Ed quoted was not lenient at all. It
>*>only said that the government is even more repressive today than
>*>it was 2 months ago. As I recall, Ed himself agreed that this was
>*>a true statement. Really, Xiang-Seng, how is a statement which
>*>says that the CCP leadership has gotten even worse than before
>*>qualify as leniency toward CCP?????
>
>>Norm did say that CCP is more repressive than 2 months ago, but that
>>was not my point. My point was that Norm is very tolerant of the CCP,
>>especially that of two months ago,
>
>This is not logical. The fact that I am saying that CCP is even more
>repressive now than 2 months ago does NOT imply that I was "tolerant"
>of the situation 2 months ago.
>
Don't be such a snake. The issue is not that you have not been mildly critical
of PRC before. I have said it again and again it is the inconsistency between
your treatment between CCP and KMT. Well, a snake always try to be slippery.
In the very paragraph I quoted, he was saying that two months ago there is a
lot of freedom of speech in China, because even though PRC did not allowed
Feng to attend Bush's banquet, PRC did allowed Feng to be interviewed by
American TV. This is Norm's trademark tactics. If I stop here, he would say,
"Ed, you are illogical, I did say PRC did not allowed Feng to attend Bush's
banquet, right, so my sentence is a criticism of PRC", that is why he can
make all those quotes, but if we took the sentence in its complete context,
it is a mild praise. His theme was that PRC may have a few problems, but it
is making good progress, and then you students came along and destroy it all.
When people points out this is wrong, he would pick out his quote about the
few problems. This may be very clever. But it is hard for people to respect
your integrity this way.
/* Disclaimer: All statments and opinions expressed are my own */
/* Edmund K. Lai */
/* Apple Computer, MS65-B */
/* 20525 Mariani Ave, */
/* Cupertino, CA 95014 */
/* (408)974-6272 */
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ANDREW.CMU.EDU!ls2r+ Sun Jul 16 13:07:12 PDT 1989
Article 20016 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ANDREW.CMU.EDU!ls2r+
>From: ls2r+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Lui Sieh)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: A Story of Khomeini (Re: A Suggestion for Efficiency)
Message-ID: <kYg0pQy00Xoh427W07@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 4 Jul 89 01:05:32 GMT
References: <488@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Reply-To: ls2r+prc@andrew.cmu.edu
Organization: Zhongguo-request+@andrew.cmu.edu
Lines: 30
Before this gets out of hand, let me clarify a bit about that Khomeni
reference.
Naturally, no one wants to see a Khomeini. Naturally, the concern was
that another dictatorship may arise from any sort of Revolution which it
should be obvious to any one who reads my post is what I believe will be
needed eventually.
However, the comments made by both Zhenqin Li and Siqing Wei would lead
one to think that the unknown future and the concern for making mistakes
and having a result that would be probably more tragic than the CCP is
well founded and not to be dismissed by anyone.
However, my only comment would be that: If nothing is done, then the
status quo is going to be the same and that's not attractive. If
something is done and do end up changing the entire infrastructure that
has an equal chance of succeeding as in failing, wouldn't it make more
sense to do it? At least there is a *chance* that a lot of good will
come out of it. Can't get anything without risking something.
----- Lui
"We should all be concerned about the future because we will have to
spend the rest of our lives there." ----- Charles F. Kettering
ARPA: ls2r+prc@andrew.cmu.edu BITNET: ls2r%andrew@cmccvb
UUCP: ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!ls2r+
These words may or may not be the real opinions of the author.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!mailrus!sharkey!itivax!umich!yhe Sun Jul 16 13:10:38 PDT 1989
Article 20024 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!mailrus!sharkey!itivax!umich!yhe
>From: yhe@zippy.eecs.umich.edu (Youda He)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: I'm collecting T-shirts
Keywords: t-shirt
Message-ID: <169@zip.eecs.umich.edu>
Date: 4 Jul 89 00:46:39 GMT
References: <18895@vax5.CIT.CORNELL.EDU> <362@wjh12.harvard.edu> <365@wjh12.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: yhe@zip.eecs.umich.edu.UUCP (Youda He)
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor, MI
Lines: 14
Here at Ann Arbor, an ART FAIR will take place on July 19-22, students at
U of Michigan want to set up a booth, among other things, we would like to
have ALL styles of T shirt available (of course T shirt about China student
movement) at Art Fair, Please all T shirt Makers contact me, We may not be
able to pay in full before hand, but willing to pay some deposite, since we
expect different style * different size. Any one who send us T shirt will be
guarantted payment, if large quantity of T shirt left, we will return at our
cost. (May be some one can do the same in other place for those T shirt?).
We also want to collect signatures for the bill, would that be too late?
Any one has other ideas about activities for ART FAIR is wellcome.
yhe@zip.eecs.umich.edu
Youda He
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!VISUAL1.TAMU.EDU!shuhong Sun Jul 16 13:10:57 PDT 1989
Article 20025 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!VISUAL1.TAMU.EDU!shuhong
>From: shuhong@VISUAL1.TAMU.EDU (Shuhong Chen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Post Emergency Things on Peloci Bill
Message-ID: <8907040224.AA13580@visual1.tamu.edu.>
Date: 4 Jul 89 02:24:06 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 28
Subj: Emergency Thing on Pelosi Bill
Hi,we have found the local area of the only two congressmen in the
House Immigration Commitee which is very important to the pass of Nancy Pelosi Bill. One (in Texas)is in Dallas, John Bryant(Democrat). His local office
address:
8035 East R.L.Thornton
Dallas, TX 75228
Tel:214-767-6554 or 202-225-2231
The other(in Texas) is in San Antonio,
Lamar Smith (Republican),
Tel: 202-225-2231
His local office address:
512-229-5880
10010 Sam Pedro #3530
San Antonio, TX 78216
Please send the message to Scc. & China.Net .We need whole Texas Chinese
students know this, especially Chinese guys in Dallas and San Antonio.
We urge them to take quick action to do something on the two important
Texas Congressmen.
Liu@tamphys
J-1 VASA COMMITEE at TAMU
From polya!shelby!decwrl!sun-barr!apple!bloom-beacon!husc6!cmcl2!linli Sun Jul 16 13:11:31 PDT 1989
Article 20027 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!sun-barr!apple!bloom-beacon!husc6!cmcl2!linli
>From: linli@cmcl2.NYU.EDU (xiaolin li)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: The Logic of A Murderer ---- News and Analysis.
Keywords: Li Peng shows his logic as a murderer.
Message-ID: <40757@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>
Date: 4 Jul 89 02:42:50 GMT
Organization: New York University
Lines: 24
According to many public news sources, Li Peng, the murderer
of the 6/4 TAM Square massacre, showed his logic in talking
with a foreign visitor. He said that the troops had to use
machine guns and tanks to shoot and crush pro-democracy demonstrators
beacuse of the following reasons: (1). The government had no
rubber bullet; (2). There were not enough storage of tear gas;
(3). The water pressure is not high enough for use of water cannon.
According to his logic, the following must be true.
(1). Because a man has no way to attract a woman, he has to rape
the woman.
(2). Because a man is short of money, he has to rob the bank.
(3). Beacuse a man has no way to persuade his wife, he has to murder
his wife.
What a logic!
What a murderer!
Li Peng will be hanged!
From polya!shelby!decwrl!sun-barr!apple!bloom-beacon!husc6!cmcl2!linli Sun Jul 16 13:12:10 PDT 1989
Article 20028 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!sun-barr!apple!bloom-beacon!husc6!cmcl2!linli
>From: linli@cmcl2.NYU.EDU (xiaolin li)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Dalai Lama Should Join China's Democracy Movement.
Keywords: When China is free, Tibet will be free too.
Message-ID: <40758@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>
Date: 4 Jul 89 03:06:50 GMT
Organization: New York University
Lines: 17
If Dalai Lama is really fighting for democracy and freedom, not
for a ruler of Tibet, he should join the democratic movement of
China. He will be greatly appreciated by the Chinese people if he
shows his concern of China in this crucial moment of the Chinese
history. He should realize that any distraction to independence
issue will harm the democratic movement.
If he can realize this, he will never be forgotten in the history
of China. When Wuer Kaixi became a leader of Beijing students, we
all proude of him as a hero of China, a hero of one billion people.
We all know that Wuer Kaixi is not a han Chinese either. I vow that
Chinese have no discrimination to any minority citizens as long
as he speaks for the people.
If Dalai Lama can do so, I will not only vote him as a governor of
Tibet but even the President of China.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!VISUAL1.TAMU.EDU!shuhong Sun Jul 16 13:12:44 PDT 1989
Article 20030 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!VISUAL1.TAMU.EDU!shuhong
>From: shuhong@VISUAL1.TAMU.EDU (Shuhong Chen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Post News - Get Suport from Churches
Message-ID: <8907040402.AA13633@visual1.tamu.edu.>
Date: 4 Jul 89 04:02:08 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 115
In some states such as Texas, Louisiana, and Oklahoma, churches have great influence in politicians. Last Sunday, about ten student activists from Texas A&M Univ. Independent Student Union went to churches to get help from them. We talked to ministers t
o ask them to call Congressman to cosponsor Pelosi's Bill. They promised to help us. We brought the prepared letters that would be signed by American citizen then sent to Congressman, the ministers help us distribute those letters to the people come
rch for the Sunday service and then help us collect them back. Now we are collecting signatures at campus. We expect to collect about 1,500 signiture of American citizens, among those there will be about 150 to 200 signitures of professors. We plane to se
nd the original signitures to our district Congressman, and the statistics(probabally including the copies of all professor's signitures ) to all Congressman of Texas. This wed. July 5, our district congressman will meet f!
ive Chinese student representativ
We use the letters posted on SCC with small modification. In your convenience, we post them here ( Thanks to the original author )
--Texas A&M Univ. Independent Student Union--
CHINESE STUDENTS AND SCHOLARS
NEED YOUR HELP!
Dear American Friends:
We are students and scholars from the People's Republic of
China currently studying in the United States. We are asking you
to write or call your Representatives to support us
by urging the passing of the following bill, the principle pro-
visions of which is:
(California) Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi's emergency
legislation to "waive the two-year foreign residence requirement
of J-class Chinese nonimmigrants" and "continue the legal status
of other Chinese nonimmigrants."
As you know, the Chinese government has brutally massacred
thousands of students and civilians in Beijing who were peace-
fully demonstrating for democratic reforms. The terror has not
ceased, but rather mounted as the Chinese government has begun
mass arrests and executions. Terror is spreading overseas as
well. Chinese diplomats in the U.S. have videotaped demonstra-
tors, student leaders, and have threatened some of them with
severe punishment upon returning home.
In order to help Chinese students and scholars in the U.S.,
President Bush offered to extend their stay for one year. But
there is no guarantee for their safety after this period.
The two-year residency requirement for J-1 visa holders was
originally enacted to ensure cultural exchanges and to benefit
the countries from where the students came. However, in view of
the situation in China, many of these students and scholars who
have actively supported this democracy movement will face immedi-
ate danger once they return.
We think it is in line with the humanitarian spirit advo-
cated and upheld by the American people to waive this two-year
requirement. The Chinese students and scholars can then return
at a time when their safety and basic human rights can be
guaranteed.
Please write to these legislators. Your efforts will be
highly appreciated by Chinese students and scholars.
------Democrat--
Morrison Bruce (Chairman, Connecticut) Tel: 202-225-3661
Barney Frank (Massachusetts) Tel: 202-225-5931
Charles Schumer (New York) Tel: 202-225-6616
Howard Berman (California) Tel: 202-225-4695
John Bryant (Texas) Tel: 202-225-2231
Romano Mazzol (Kentucky) Tel: 202-225-5401
------Republican--
Lamar Smith (Texas) Tel: 202-225-4236
Bill McCollum (Florida) Tel: 202-225-2176
D Franch Slaughter (Virginia) Tel: 202-225-6561
Hamilton Fish (New York) Tel: 2-2-225-5441
========================
The Honorable
United States House of Representative
Washington DC, 20515
Dear Representative:
I am an American Citizen. I am writing to you concern-
ing the safety of the Chinese students and scholars in this
country. These people are fearful for their lives and
well-being if they are forced to return to China.
I urge you to recognize their fears as being well-
founded, and support the following House bill: HR2712 by
Representative Nancy Pelosi of California. I understand the
principle provisions of this bill would "waive the two-year
foreign residence requirement of J-class Chinese nonimmi-
grants" and "continue the legal status of other Chinese
nonimmigrants."
I think it is in line with the humanitarian spirit
advocated and upheld by the American people to waive this
two-year requirement. The Chinese students and scholars can
then return at a time when their safety and basic human
rights can be guaranteed.
Sincerely,
Signature Name Address
______________________________________________________________
From polya!shelby!agate!bionet!apple!usc!merlin.usc.edu!sal-sun15.usc.edu!chunchan Sun Jul 16 13:14:43 PDT 1989
Article 20034 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!bionet!apple!usc!merlin.usc.edu!sal-sun15.usc.edu!chunchan
>From: chunchan@sal-sun15.usc.edu (Chun Chang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Opnions of some graduate students in USC to Chinese students
Message-ID: <4284@merlin.usc.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 21:42:59 GMT
Sender: news@merlin.usc.edu
Reply-To: chunchan@sal-sun15.usc.edu ()
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 38
Opinions of some graduate students in chemistry to Chinese students:
Regarding Chinese students support of Congressional Bills relating to your immigration status:
If it is the case that a specific bill introduced before Congress(e.g.,the Gorton Bill) is judged superior and preferable to others,and a consensus of Chinese students and scholars agrees that it is preferable, this opinion must be communicated to Congres
s for the following reasons:
1. Friends of the students in Congress(e.g.,Gorton and Wilson) need to use the endorsement of the Chinese students as a tool to separate their Bill from the others, and the question will be asked as to which Bill the Chinese in America support.
2. If no opinion is offered, it will be assumed that the Chinese students have no preference, no opinions, and that there are not enough Chinese who want to stay in this country, or that they are hopelessly divided on this issue.
3. Congress operate on a system of compromise. A bill is introduced, debated, modified until passage is guaranteed. This requires that the starting position be stated clearly and be as strongly affirmed as possible(i.e.one's starting position should not
already be a compromise).
4. There will be those who feel that the Chinese students are using the situation in China to their advantage to gain permanent residence, but those people will not support your bill anyway! You should not cater to their opinions; rater, you should
help those who support you! Few will believe that Chinese students would risk their personal and family's safety just to remain in this country.
To support no bills would indicate a lack of interest or consensus, and therefore would create a false impression which will harm the efforts in Congress. To support all the bills under consideration indicates confusion and compromise. You feel strongly
about the provision unique to the Gorton Bill, so you must actively endorse it. The political climate at this time is very favorable for the passage of the Gorton Bill. How long this climate will last is unknown. It is vital that a bill be passed now
is a permanent solution to your problems, because in a year or two the public(and therefore Congress) may lose interest and resolve.
Gerard Jensen (213-743 5719)
Dennis Hair (213-743 3489)
Donald Hodgson (213-734 3489)
Diane Reifschneider (213-743 6489)
From polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!bsu-cs!xiong Sun Jul 16 13:15:54 PDT 1989
Article 20035 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!bsu-cs!xiong
>From: xiong@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Bo Xiong)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: News From Radio Beijing, 8:00p.m. PDT July 2 / June 30
Summary: I am helping to post this
Message-ID: <8046@bsu-cs.bsu.edu>
Date: 4 Jul 89 05:07:06 GMT
Reply-To: xiong@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Bo Xiong)
Organization: CS Dept, Ball St U, Muncie, Indiana
Lines: 54
====================== Message from Vancouver, Canada =======================
Radio Beijing News 8pm PDT July 2 (11695kHz)
* According to the order from Deng Xiaoping, 10 soldiers died in cracking
down counter revollutionary riot are honoured as the "Guard of the
Republic".
[ I would call them the "running dogs of the emperor" or "killers of
the people". ]
* During the 7.8th general meeting of the NPC standing committee, the
member Ma Wanqi claimed the Deng Xiaoping's speech on June 9 is good
enough for people in HK and Marco to stop suspecious.
[ It is Deng's speech which makes HK and Marco people nurvous, because
it does not respect any basic human rights, instead it emphasis the
emperor's (or a handful's) right. ]
* According to Chinese Bureau of High-Level Eduction, there were 36
students being killed during June 4th cracking down. None of them were
died in TAMS. They were killed because they did not listen to the army's
announcement or the advise from their universities. They went out to the
street doing various things like blocking tanks etc. They were killed
respectively in Mu xidi, Nan chizi, Xi dan and Zhu shikou. Their bodies
have been burned and they parents were allowed to join the "processing".
* 3,800 students are going to graduate in this summer. They were called
back to universities, to study Deng's speech, to catch up the thesis
experiment and defense. They will leave univerities in later July.
A small number of graduates who violated the law will be delayed
temporarily for graduation.
[ look, the trick here is the "small number" ]
------------------------------------------------------
Radio Beijing News 8ps PDT June 30:
with pin yin in () and our comments in []
----------------
* According to the written proposal made by Deng Xiaoping, Mr Zhao
Ziyang is removed from the position of vice-chairman of the PRC
national military central committee in the 7.8th meeting of the
standing committee of the Chinese national people's congress. In
his proposal, Deng accused Zhao for his mistakes in supprting the
riot and deviding the CCP. It is not mentioned who will take over
that position after Zhao's removal.
----------------
Radio Beijing also reported that the mail and news paper are getting
normal now. During the riot, mails, letters and news papers were piled
up. They all have been cleared and mail are delivered as normal.
===============================================================================
.
From polya!shelby!agate!Pilger@Ausland Sun Jul 16 13:16:34 PDT 1989
Article 20036 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!Pilger@Ausland
>From: Pilger@Ausland
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Dalai Lama Should Join China's Democracy Movement.
Keywords: When China is free, Tibet will be free too.
Message-ID: <25995@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>
Date: 4 Jul 89 05:36:10 GMT
References: <40758@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> <32861@apple.Apple.COM>
Sender: usenet@agate.BERKELEY.EDU
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 11
In article <32861@apple.Apple.COM> lai@Apple.COM (Ed Lai) writes:
>
>Actually from what I have read, Dalai Lama is quite supportive of the Chinese
>students, even if you never heard it from some of the self-proclaimed
>spokesman for Tibet.
Same was when Dalai expressed his willingness to remain some connection
with China, both CCP and some of the self-proclaimed 'friends of Tibetan'
were very upset. Some Mainlanders on the net expressed their support for
Dalai's position, but the other side just kept silence, even more so, no
one asked then why was the silence.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!esvax.berkeley.edu!hing Sun Jul 16 13:17:22 PDT 1989
Article 20037 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!esvax.berkeley.edu!hing
>From: hing@esvax.berkeley.edu (Hing Wong)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: A Briefing of the Visa Bill Issues
Message-ID: <29939@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>
Date: 4 Jul 89 06:57:51 GMT
Sender: usenet@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Reply-To: hing@esvax.berkeley.edu (Hing Wong)
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 134
==========================================================
This message contains info which I have collected.
Most the info in this message are from "china-net",
some through "scc" and some through phone calls.
None of them is directly from the representative's office.
I prepared this briefing for a meeting here. You may want
to make your change/input, then print/distribute it as
general info also. Save some time.
I never forget the following words from an American friend,
"If you don't help yourself, no one will help you."
So, do something.
---- hing wong (U.C.Berkeley)
=========================================================
A Report on the Visa Bill Issues (7/3)
1. What are the bills/options:
1) Extended Deferred Departure (EDD)
This is Bush's measure. But it is warned right away by
foreign student advisers not to take it.
Problems with EDD:
a) To apply one has to express the unwillingness to return,
which is considered traitorous to Chinese government.
b) EDD has no precedent. No one knows what'll happen later.
It may get extended and may not, depending on Bush.
c) Can not change to other visa status, which means no hope
for long term jobs.
2) Congress Bills: There are three kinds of bills so far:
1) Waive the 2-year home residency requirement. It is just
like switching J-1 to F-1.
House: Nancy Pelosi's bill (HR2712)
Senate: Alan Dixon (D-Ill) (S1222)
Herb Kohl
Alan Cranston (D-CA) (S.1218)
2) Grant blanket permanant residency.
House: Gunderson (R-Wis) (HR 2722)
Senate: Gorton (R-Wash) (S.1209)
3) Something in between: Granting temporary residence for 18
month and then allow permanant residency applications.
Senate: Al D'Amato (S.1268)
2. Which one should we support:
It is now the consensus that we should concentrate on the
bills which waive the 2-year home-stay requirement. i.e.
Nancy Pelosi' bill in the House
Alan Dixon's bill in the Senate (Companion bill of
Pelosi's bill)
Why Pelosi's bill?
1) High chance of passing because it is less controver-
sial. It has 158 co-sponsor now! If we can get 58 more
co-sponsors from the congress, the bill will automati-
cally get to the floor. It is a historically favorable
bill and WE JUST CAN NOT LOOSE IT.
2) It has LOTs of supporters in both
house/senate/immigration lawyers.
Even house majority leader openly supported it.
American Immigration Lawyer Association endorses this
bill.
3) Just about every major school is rally support for THIS
bill.
Limitations of Pelosi's bill:
1) It does not promise that a J-1 visa holder can stay here,
depending on job opportunities.
2) Immigration quota.
Why not Gorton's bill?
1) Low chance of passing. It is strongly opposed from all
directions: White House, Immigration Subcommittee, Jud-
iciary Committee, Professional organizations (e.g.
American Immigration Lawyer Association), other minor-
ity groups, and maybe even American public.
2) No justification for it, because PR is not necessary to
protect Chinese students.
3) We have hard time to argue without causing suspicion:
Why do we need a PR?
How about the compromise senate bill?
Not sure about it. Companion bill in house not heard yet.
Just not much noise about it. When Pelosi's bill is gaining
great potential, there is no way to change direction. We are
locked into it.
3. What are people doing?
1) Direct lobbying
Students from U. Maryland, U. NC, U. Illinoise simply knock
the doors and talk to the congressmen in DC. U. Maryland
students even met with the house majority leader Dick
Gephardt, and got him to co-sponsor Pelosi's bill. U.
Illinoise's students increased the co-sponsor number by 8
overnight through lobbying in DC.
2) Letter Campaign (grass-root support from American
citizens)
Just about every school is doing it. We write to
congressmen/senators/Bush administration to express our
feeling and wishes. Ask U.S. citizens to urge them to sup-
port the bill.
3) Telephone/Fax lobbying
Similar to letter campaign. Stanford used a Fax PC board to
send an appeal letter with lots of signatures to 300 some
congressmen overnight.
4) Appeal to school administration for support.
Cal-tech got their President to write a support letter.
5) Appeal to professional societies (APS, NSF, IEEE, MRS, etc).
Cornell students got APS chairperson(?) to openly support
the bill.
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!purdue!bu-cs!dartvax!D1.dartmouth.edu!63011v Sun Jul 16 13:17:49 PDT 1989
Article 20038 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!purdue!bu-cs!dartvax!D1.dartmouth.edu!63011v
>From: 63011v@D1.dartmouth.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Dartmouth Students Met With Bill Quinn.
Message-ID: <14187@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU>
Date: 4 Jul 89 06:16:40 GMT
Sender: news@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU
Reply-To: 63011v@D1.dartmouth.edu
Organization: Project NORTHSTAR, Dartmouth College
Lines: 25
On July 3rd, we met with Mr. Bill Quinn, the foreign affair
assistant to congresswoman Nancy Pelosi, at Dartmouth. He seems very
optimistic about the HR2712 bill. So far we have 158 co-sponsors,
that is much more than that in the usual case. Furthermore, Bill Quinn
feels that it won't be too difficult to get another 70 co-sponsors.
However, we still need to work as hard as before. Bill Quinn also
suggested that it would be a good idea to seek help from news media to
make the following points be aware national wide.
1) This bill is not dealing with just a immigration problem, but more
importantly with a human right issue.
2) The restriction on J-1 holder has been abused by Chinese government
as a measure to control the Chinese over-sea student.
3) What we are asking for is not the PR, but getting rid of the
2-years requirement which will force lots of us to face the dangerous
of being punished by Chinese government. Eventually, most of us will
go back to China provide a environment with more democracy and freedom
be established in the future.
4) The EDD made by president Bush will make our life unpredictable.
5) We do need the support from American public through the news media.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!purdue!bu-cs!dartvax!D1.Dartmouth.edu!63011v Sun Jul 16 13:17:59 PDT 1989
Article 20039 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!purdue!bu-cs!dartvax!D1.Dartmouth.edu!63011v
>From: 63011v@D1.Dartmouth.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Minutes with Bill Quinn, 7/3/89.
Message-ID: <14188@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU>
Date: 4 Jul 89 06:24:54 GMT
Sender: news@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU
Reply-To: 63011v@D1.Dartmouth.edu
Organization: Project NORTHSTAR, Dartmouth College
Lines: 34
Minutes With Bill Quinn 7/3/89
===============================
Here are some ideas we got from the conversation with Bill Quinn at Dartmouth
on July 3rd.
a) There are at least 70 to 80 members of the House can be persuaded.
(we have 158 co-sponsors by 7/3/89)
b) People in the following states need to do more lobbying work:
Texas, Maryland, Florida, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Ohio.
c) The First Hurdle is to pass the subcommittee. However, if there are 217
co-sponsors, the bill will go to the floor nevertheless. Bill Quinn thinks
that the key is to keep the Pressure on!
d) The arguments against the 2-year waiver bill are
(1) This should be the President Bush's job.
(2) Senator Allen Simpson asks the question what if the similar situation
happens in another country later on.
e) Bill Quinn thinks that there will be overwhelming supports from the public.
Once people really understand this issue, it will be hard for some
Congresspersons to vote against this bill.
d) It is very important to put the pressure on the Chairman of the House
Immigration Subcommittee, Bruce A. Morrison. His phone number is
(202)225-3661. Ask your American Colleagues/Friends to push him!
Chinese Students at Dartmouth College, Hanover,NH
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!ssurf!tang Sun Jul 16 13:19:05 PDT 1989
Article 20041 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!ssurf!tang
>From: tang@ssurf
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Government Compensates PLA "Martyrs" In TAM Massacre
Message-ID: <8907040816.AA17943@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 4 Jul 89 07:56:00 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 33
CCP are now rewarding Beijing butchers. Xiaolin Li writes in article
<40743@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> (2 Jul 89),
>According to China Daily News (Hua Qiao Ri Bao), the government
>compensation for PLA soldiers who died in TAM Massacre is $10,000
>RMB. Those wounded will receive $5,000 to $7,000 RMB differ in each
>case.
>
>Comparison: Those who died in Sino-Vietnam war received only $2,000 RMB.
These days, one of the things I most like to see on People's Daily is some
detailed exaltation telling us how those military 'heroes,' with their real
names, performed their glorified task.
After 1976's TAM Square Massacre, People's Daily published an article
to praise the commander of Beijing Worker Militia, Ma Xiaoliu (Little Sixth).
It told us how this guy planed the bloodshed without sleep in three days.
So, after the downfall of the Gang of the Four, people sent him to jail.
I was very disappointed when I read the report of CCP Plenary Meeting.
I wish I could read some thing like that: a military commander, with his
name given, was introduced to attendees as the savor of Beijing, and greeted
by thunderous claps. CCP seem to be scared to death to tell us who are
the living heroes of suppressing the 'counter-revolutionary riot.' Should
we give CCP some encouragement?
Could some of our 'cool-head' friends do us a favor? Please write
letters to People's Daily; tell the editors, some overseas students are
deeply moved by PLA's heroic deeds and want to learn from them, could
People's Daily publish detailed reports of those PLA and police heroes?
I wish Mr. Shen in Minnesota (his letter appeared on June 5 People's Daily)
could do this job, and I would genuinely appreciate it very much.
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!ANDREW.CMU.EDU!ls2r+ Sun Jul 16 13:20:35 PDT 1989
Article 20043 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!ANDREW.CMU.EDU!ls2r+
>From: ls2r+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Lui Sieh)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Fwd from National Central University R.O.C
Message-ID: <0Yg=Pdy00XcSE4ylwB@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 4 Jul 89 13:08:57 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 83
Viewpoint from Professor Fang Rufan:
Having to spend four hours wading through s.c.c. postings for June 26-27
I am
beginning to feel the time spent is counterproductive. I now spend more
time
reading than doing.
For those of us who are interested in positive action that can save
lives and h
make the dream of freedom for which the students who died at Tienanmen
come
true, I suggest we consider a new more streamlined network dedicated to
action
and the passing of relevant information. Leave s.s.c to the
hard-liners who se
to delight in playing the ego fulfilling game of first provoking and
then respo
who trip off on their old, played-out tunes of KMT, TI, God etc. A
happy thoug
that without us as their audience they will simply bore each other to
death
The idea of cooperation and coordination has been a growing concern of
many
s.c.c. readers. The notion of strength in unity, organizing a national
or inter
committee has growing support. Large organization is effective in
organizing
media blitzes, marches and demonstrations, letter writing and fund
raising, dis
information, etc. However, it is also very dangerous as large
organizations
are easily infiltrated and efforts thus easily sabotaged. Just because
some on
overseas student or scholar from China by no means makes him safe. I
personall
prefer to work alone but I also appreciate and recognize the value of a
coordin
center which can tell me where I can tap certain human or material
resources.
Also, a centralized advisory council could solicit the help of
concerned outsi
experts about the feasibility of certain activities before proposing
them on an
action agenda. Discussion focussed around the pros and cons of a
particular ac
can be very fruitful and eye opening (see discussion of lobbying for
proposed b
before congress) but if this could be done in advance it would enable
us to put
our energy into the nitty gritty of just getting things done.
Peoples lives remain in grave danger. There is still much that we can
constructively do to promote the revolution. Surely we need an
information
network to avoid the endless unproductive duplication and overlapping
of effort
Streamlining and redefining the guidelines of s.c.c. (or creating a
new net )
give us more time to be productive as well as sharpen the whole focus
of the Fr
China movement. We have somehow become entangled in nets of our own
making, and if we try to cast them off there is always the veiled
protest (thre
"freedom", "let everyone have his say."
Freedom means choosing who we want to associate with (perhaps we don't
need to
associate, at least on s.c.c., with those who persist in using this
service as
soapbox for their pet ideas or those who have a constant craving to
see their
in print but take no positive action), deciding on the guidelines of
that assoc
and then taking the responsibility to work within those guidelines or
to change
them as conditions change.
The rabid dog is dying, but before he dies he goes mad, and in his
madness kill
and murders everything in its path. One does not stand calmly before a
rabid d
and talk reasons, talk politics. Talk means nothing to the rabid dog
who is wit
conscience. We must do everything in our power to cage and destroy the
rabid
dog.
Fang Rufan
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcvax!kth!draken!duvan!zikui Sun Jul 16 13:21:26 PDT 1989
Article 20044 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcvax!kth!draken!duvan!zikui
>From: zikui@duvan.nada.kth.se (Zi-Kui Liu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Action for Nobel Prize
Keywords: Nobel Prize
Message-ID: <1242@draken.nada.kth.se>
Date: 4 Jul 89 09:33:17 GMT
Sender: news@nada.kth.se
Reply-To: manager@china.se
Organization: The Royal Inst. of Techn., Stockholm
Lines: 42
********************
Hej, zikui, Please put the following message into SCC. I have no time
to learn how to do it. Thanks. /yidong
********************
Dear netters,
A group of Chinese students in Sweden are acting on the nomination for
the BEIJING AUTONOMOUS STUDENT UNION or Chai Ling for Nobel price of
this year. We welcome all of you to give us support and bring up
proposals. The following persons have the right of submission for the
Nobel Peace Price: (from The Nobel Foundation and the Swedish
Institute)
Right to submit proposals for the award of Nobel Peace Prize, based on
the principle of competence and universality, shall by statute be
enjoyed by:
1: Active and former members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee and the
advisers appointed by the Norwegian Nobel Institute;
2: Members of the national assemblies and governments of the different
states and members of the Interparliamentary Union;
3: Members of the International Court of Arbitration at the Hague;
4: Members of the Commission of the Permanent International Peace Bureau;
5: Members and associate members of the Institut de Droit International;
6: University professors of political science and jurisprudence,
history and philosophy; and
7: Nobel Laureates for Peace.
Please do your best to get supports from these people for the nomination.
We have some more detail information about the Nobel Price as well as
the rules, which you can always reach by asking:
shao Yidong
physics 3
KTH
100 44 Stockholm
Sweden
Tel : 08-7907256, 08-7906079 (o)
08-165837 (h)
Fax : 08-249131
E-mail : hfan@vaxkab.sunet.se, hfan@china.se or shao@theophys.kth.se
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!hkucs.UUCP!kwchan Sun Jul 16 13:23:13 PDT 1989
Article 20047 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!hkucs.UUCP!kwchan
>From: kwchan@hkucs.UUCP (Chan Ki Wa)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: China & HK News
Message-ID: <8907050101.AA07933@hkucs.HKU.HK>
Date: 5 Jul 89 01:01:49 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 334
Source : South China Morning Post
Date : 4th July 89
Send time : 5:00 pm HKT
Sender : hkucs!kwchan@uunet.uu.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------
[South China Morning Post, Tuesday, July 4, 1989]
POLICE MAY HAVE NETTED WANG
[By David Chen, Willy Wo-lop lam and agencies]
Chinese armed police yesterday morning arrested a Taipei reporter in
Beijing after he had reportedly met student leader Wang Dan, who heads the
list of the 21 pro-democracy activists most wanted by the Government.
Wang also may have been detained but officials deny any knowledge of his
whereabouts and refused to provide information about Huang Teh-pei, of
Taiwan's Independence Evening Post.
Huang had kept a rendezvous with Wang at a pre-arranged place on Sunday
morning, according to Huang's colleague, Miss Hsu Lu.
But when Huang and his locally-engaged driver reached the area, they
noticed they were being followed.
Wang Dan reportedly jumped into the car and they drove away, closedly
followed by police.
After a distance, Huang leapt from the car, hoping to divert the attention
of the police.
However, the police followed the hire car regardless and both vehicles
soon disappeared.
Huang lost contact with the driver that day and he and Miss Hsu called
their office in Taipei at 11.30 am yesterday to file the story.
Twenty minutes later, Huang was arrested as he and Miss Hsu walked out of
the Peace Hotel, where they are staying.
Witness who saw the arrest said seven soldiers with automatic weapons and
three policemen bundled Huang into a car when he left the hotel in
Wangfujing, central Beijing.
The police gave no reason to Huang for the detention, the witnesses said.
It is believed that Wang Dan and the driver of the car might also have
been arrested.
Sources well acquainted with the events of June 3 and June 4 at Tiananmen
Square claimed that Wang had been shot several times in the back as
soldiers assaulted the Heros' Monument. They said he had either been left
for dead or his body had been run over by tanks.
Miss Hsu, however, claimed that it was Wang Dan that it was Wang Dan that
Huang had seen.
She said Wang had asked Huang to help him leave the country and the
reporter agreed.
"I think the two of them were under police surveillance at the time
because we haven't heard anything from Wang since then and we think he has
been arrested." she said.
Sh said Wang had escaped to south China after the military crackdown, but
return to Beijing in order to find a way to leave the country.
Miss Hsu could not give further information as she had never personally
met Wang Dan.
Huang, who is said to have closely followed the student movement which
occupied Tiananmen Square during the weeks leading up to the crackdown,
went back to Taipei after the massacre but returned to Beijing only a few
days ago.
Miss Hsu was one of the two journalists from the Independence Evening Post
who made the first reporting trip to China two years ago.
At the time it caused a major sensation and their moves were closely
followed by the world press.
She returned to Beijing in March this year to report on the second session
of the seventh National People's Congress. She stayed on in the capital
and was soon joined by Huang to report on the student movement.
Huang's arrest raised an uproar among the Taipei press who demanded that
Chinese authorities adopt measures to guarantee the safety of the Taipei
journalists now staying in Beijing.
Government spokesman, Dr Shaw Yu-ming, said Red Cross officials in Taiwan
cabled their counterparts in China to ask for assistance. He also called
on international news organisations to help seek Huang's release.
"We're very deeply concerned and we hope mainland China will respect
freedom of the press and release Huang as soon as possible," he said.
In Taipei, the Independence Evening Post issued a statement condemning
Huang's detention.
"Our newspaper strongly protests against the barbaric disregard for human
rights of the communist authorities and demands his immediate release," the
statement said.
"Respect for freedom of the press is a basic condition for all civilised
countries.
"I hope that the concern of the international media for Mr Huang and the
pressure they exert on Beijing will enable Mr Huang to return in safety."
"The arrest of Mr Huang could put a damper on on-going links between the
mainland and Taiwan," said and Asian diplomat.
"For example, visits to the mainland by 'Taiwan compatriots' could be
drastically cut."
The Hongkong Journalists Association yesterday wrote a letter to Mr Xu
Jiatun, Director of the Hongkong Branch of the New China News Agency to
protest against Huang's arrest.
"We hope the authorities concerned will explain the action taken against
Huang Teh-pei as soon as possible," the letter said. "We further hope that
the authorities will reinstate Mr Huang's freedom of action."
The HKJA said it hoped the Beijing leadership realised that "it is and
extremely unwise action to regard the Hongkong, Macau and Taiwan media as
enemies and to limit the journalistic freedom of reporters".
And late last night, the Brussels-based Internalists with a membership of
45 unions representing 150,000, called on new General Secretary, Mr Jiang
Zemin, to allow local and foreign reporters to do their work freely.
They expressed grave concern at Huang's arrest and the reported arrest of
two reporters from the Shanghai World Economic Herald several days before.
-----------------------------------------------------
Crying, is our motherland!
Crying, are our mothers, our brother and sisters!
Crying, our students and scholars in alien countries!
Where is the hope of our nation!
-----------------------------------------------------
[South China Morning Post, Tuesday, July 4, 1989]
EIGHT WALK OUT ON HOWE
[By John Tang and Daphne Cheng]
British Foreign Secretary, Sir Geoffrey Howe, was subjected to an out-burst
from eight community leaders before they walked out of an official lunch in
protest against the British Government's stance on nationality.
Sir Geoffrey was nearing the end of his speech at a lunch hosted in his
honour by the Governor, Sir Daivd Wilson, and attended by more than 200
community leaders when the protesters accused the Foreign Secretary of
having "insulted the intelligence of Hongkong people".
Kwai Tsing District Board chairman Lee Wing-tat unfurled a banner insider
the hall that read: "Shame on the Thatcher Government" and "Irresponsible and
hypocritic Government".
He denounced the speech as "a piece of bulls..t".
"We protest and we walk out," shouted Mr Lee, who was escorted from the
hall with seven others by plain-clothes police from Security Branch to a
smattering of applause.
It was the second consecutive day Sir Geoffrey had been jeered during his
three-day fact-finding mission.
Speaking after yesterday's incident, Sir Geoffrey said: "I am not in the
least bit embarrassed, that's free speech, although it is not a very
elegant way of exercising it."
Sir David said: "I am sorry to see a lack of courtesy at a lunch which I
hosted."
Senior Executive Councillor Dame Lydia Dunn said she entirely understood
the feelings of Hongkong people who wanted to demonstrate their feelings.
"But we must always remember that when we demonstrate our feelings we must
do it in a dignified and peaceful way."
"We must choose our venues and to do it in a way that is not contrary to
what Hongkong always stands for - a hospitable and polite place.
Otherwise, it would be counter-productive," she said.
Dame Lydia said she was disappointed that Sir Geoffrey had nothing new to
say to lift the anxieties of Hongkong people.
Senior Legislative Councillor Allen Lee Peng-fei said it was important for
Hongkong people to handle the right of abode issue in a dignified manner.
"When we went to the United Kingdom, we presented our case in a very
dignified way. We know the deep sentiment of the people but I regret what
has happened today," Mr Lee said.
In his speech, Sir Geoffrey deplored China's brutal repression of the
pro-democracy movement and in a brief mention of the nationality issue
ruled out right of abode in Britain for Hongkong citizens.
However, he spent his entire 1.75-hour dinner meeting with Executive and
Legislative councillors last night discussing the single issue of
passports.
Sir Geoffrey said: "We had a very interesting evening with Omelco members,
hearing very candidly what the anxiety are and also what their suggestions
are of the future. Actually, I am thinking about these very closely."
"I am looking at some possible proposals in relation to the right of
abode. Of course we are studying what may come forth in terms of
democratisation, the importance of a Bill of Rights."
Senior Executive Councillor, Dame Lydia Dunn said the meeting with Sir
Geoffrey was "very frank".
His lunchtime speech concentrated on the Chinese Army's attack on unarmed
demonstrators in Beijing.
Sir Geoffrey said it "destroyed at a stroke the reputation the Chinese
Government had been building for itself for 10 years".
"It's done enormous harm to China and it's dealt a severe blow to
Hongkong".
But he said China's actions did not invalidate the 1984 Sino-British
agreement on Hongkong, which provides for continuation of the territory's
capitalist system and legal code for at least 50 years beyond 1997.
"The Chinese have said publicly, and they have assured us privately as
well, that their policy toward Hongkong will not be affected by the recent
events, and they, like us, remain committed to the Joing Declaration," Sir
Geoffrey said.
"The events of recent weeks don't make that treaty any less binding. They
do make its strict observance all the more necessary.
"The whole point of the agreement was and is to safeguard Hongkong from
the kink of problems in China of which we have just seen an extreme
example."
Sir Geoffrey again rejected appeals to grant 5.7 million Hongkong people
the right abode in Britain and denied that the decision was racist.
"I know the depth of your anxiety," he said. "The plain fact is there is
simply no way that a British Government could grant to several million
people the right to come and live in Britain".
Sir Geoffrey indicated only an unspecified number from the private and
public sectors would be allowed to emigrate to Britain, based on their UK
connections and value of service to Hongkong and closed the door to any
change in immigration policy.
"There would be no more cruel deception than an insurance policy on which
we could not deliver.
"It dismays me that some have suggested that this is a matter of race. It
is nothing of the sort," Sir Geoffrey said.
"It is a practical problem on an enormous scale" that would test Britain's
capacity in housing, employment and transportation, he said.
He added that Britain would mobilise the international community should
anything go wrong.
"If things did go catastrophically wrong, Britain has firm obligations
towards Hongkong. We would not close our door."
He also promised to consider speeding up the pace of democracy, enacting a
Bill of Rights, and re-examining the presence of Chinese troops in Hongkong
after 1997.
Turning to Vietnamese boat people issue, Sir Geoffrey said a durable
package to bring about a durable solution to the problem was in sight.
This package included the voluntary and mandatory repatriation of
non-refugees, and the setting up of a regional refugee processing centre in
Philipines.
As the finished his speech, Mr Lee shouted: "We have just heard the piece
of bulls..t speech made by Geoffrey Howe, one which did not give us any
kind of assurance."
"We are vary angry that the United Kingdom is to hand six million Hongkong
people to a government that massacred thousands of students at Tiananmen
Square."
Mr Lee remained unapologetic as he was led away.
"He cannot realise the pressures of the Hongkong people. Why did he come
here? I think he had better go home. We urge the UK to give a right of
abode to six million people but we don't want to leave Hongkong.
"I will not leave even if that hypocritic British Government gives me a UK
passport."
Others who walked out were Shamshuipo District Board members Frederick
Fung kin-kee and Tam Kwok-kui, Kwai Tsing District Board members Sin
Chung-kai, Lee Kin-sang, Kwong Fu-sam, Chung Man-fai, and Southern District
Board member Wong kin-cheung.
After lunch, Sir Geoffrey took a ride on the soon to be opened Eastern
Harbour Crossing.
He and lady Howe travelled from Quarry Bay to Lam Tin, as a symbol of
confidence in the territory's economy.
The $4 billion second harbour crossing is the largest single transport
project undertaken by the private sector in the territory.
Sir Geoffrey, then went on a walkabout in Causeway Bay before meeting all
19 chairmen of the district boards at the Government Secretariat.
The chairmen renewed calls for Britain to grant Hongkong citizens the
right of abode.
Later, they said they were disappointed with Sir Geoffrey who repeated the
message that Britain could not allow large numbers of Hongkong people into
the country.
Sir Geoffrey also briefly met the Federation of Students who expressed
concern about Hongkong student Yao Yongzhan, who is still being held by
Beijing authorities in Shanghai.
Federation secretary-general Andrew To Kwan-hang said he was disappointed
that Sir Geoffrey could offer no assurances about Yao's safety.
Yesterday morning, Sir Geoffrey met about 100 mostly local, senior
officials, led by Chief Secretary, Sir David Ford.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ANDREW.CMU.EDU!ls2r+ Sun Jul 16 13:24:31 PDT 1989
Article 20048 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ANDREW.CMU.EDU!ls2r+
>From: ls2r+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Lui Sieh)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Pro Government (was Re: Government Compensates PLA "Martyrs" In TAM Massacre)
Message-ID: <4YgAfQy00XcS84ynkC@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 4 Jul 89 14:34:04 GMT
References: <8907040816.AA17943@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Reply-To: ls2r+prc@andrew.cmu.edu
Lines: 62
In article <8907040816.AA17943@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> dated 4-Jul-89,
tang@ssurf writes:
> I wish Mr. Shen in Minnesota (his letter appeared on June 5 People's
> Daily)
> could do this job, and I would genuinely appreciate it very much.
This reminds me of an interesting experience. The other day, I met
someone on this campus who supported the actions of the government and
believed that the students were wrong. It was clear he didn't know my
position but instead asked me to relay the information to 2 other people
I knew since they have disagreed before.
He spoke and I listened but as I was listening, I formed "answers" to
his beliefs. I find that it is important that people listen to the
people who agree with the government crackdown. In this way, the people
supporting action will know how to deal with explaining why action is
needed. My belief is that there are many Chinese who believe that the
Government did the right thing and it would be difficult when the time
comes to convince them why it was wrong.
His comments were shortened unfortunately but I'd like to review some of
the things he said because I think there are quite a number of people
who think that way and are just afraid to speak out because "radicals"
like me would jump at him. And I believe that his comments are *very*
important. BTW, I happen to like the guy.
%Him: I believe that the students were right at the beginning to have
asked the government to deal %with the corruption and the inflation etc.
The students demands were very reasonable *at first*. %However, I
believe that the students should have withdrawn from the demonstrations
when the %government said that they also agree and would seek to change
the problems. The students %demands became unreasonable and the more
they stayed demonstrating, they were causing trouble. %The students
were causing anarchy. This is intolerable. They broke the law by doing
what they %were doing. The government was right to not tolerate this
breach of the law and the crackdown %was justified. In fact, the
government should have cracked down sooner.
[Then he talked about the person from Minnesota]
%Did you know what happened to him? People publicly posted his name and
address and telephone %and all the people started to harrass him and
make threatening calls. Do you think this is right? %This is
democracy? [Though he didn't say it, I felt he was thinking that the
students are wrong. He %had some hesitations during his conversation.]
This isn't good.
This summarizes his opinions.
While we have been through this once with the person from UK and Henry
Zhiwei Young, the arguments that people responded may seem convincing to
most people, but I think that it wouldn't be for the people that matter
the most.
Everyone should address the issues raised by his comments:
1) Anarchy -- unacceptable (so is violence)
2) Personal attacks -- is this democracy? Shutting people up is what
everyone wants?
3) The government is still the supreme law of the land and should not
be challenged.
I tire of the effort.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!NDSUVM1.BITNET!UD154342 Sun Jul 16 13:27:43 PDT 1989
Article 20050 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!NDSUVM1.BITNET!UD154342
>From: UD154342@NDSUVM1.BITNET (Rick Johnson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Air-mail from Shanghai (July 3)
Message-ID: <Added.YYgAthG00UkT4DSk4W@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 4 Jul 89 14:29:47 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 48
Hi SCC'ers,
I received Air-Mail from my girlfreind in Shanghai. It took only
1 week to arrive ! She has been receiving *ALL* of my letters and
Newspaper-clipings/photos.
I encourage all people to Air-mail these materials to people in China.
Also, for Chinese people who want to 'hide' their name.. Send me your
news/sugguestions. I will censor your name and post for you. This will
protect you from the Gov't harming your familes.
----------------------- Cut Here for Letter ------------------
June 25, 1989
Dear Rick,
I've got your 3 letters, except for a few days delayed because
of the transporation mess 2 weeks before. (I had mailed her
1 letter, and 2 more envelopes with newpaper-cuts).
I worte a letter and mailed it on June 8th. Have you got it ?
(Yes, I received it). I'm worrying whether it was stopped or not
when going out. You know situations are different from 2 weeks
before, all the smaller Colleges are re-opened. I've been in
school for 2 weeks. But large Universities like Beijing Univ,
Fudan Univ, Jiaotong Univ, their students all went back to their
hometowns. it's impossible to call them back. So they'll start
school 1 month earlier than before, in August.
Because everything is normal now, we'll take our damned Final-
Exams next week. It's hard to get down to studying againg after
nearly 1 months interval.
Rick, I'm worying that the US-China relation is getting
serious (to the worst; I think she means). It's normal to think
about this becasue our present Premier was once a schoolmate of
Gorbachev, and a Shanghai High Official who contributed to this
victory was promoted. He was also a student studying in the
Soveit union in the 1940's and 1950's.
Rick, as far as the mail between our 2 countries is normal,
We'll write to each other. I won't say much about political
situations. It's dangerous these days.
These days, the hotel prices are greatly reduced. Sheraton
Hotel has only 5% of the rooms occupied.
(note: The rest was personal/social information)
Loves and Loves,
__________.
---------------End of Letter------------------
From polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!bsu-cs!xiong Sun Jul 16 13:31:13 PDT 1989
Article 20051 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!bsu-cs!xiong
>From: xiong@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Bo Xiong)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: SCC Readership Tripled Since March, Traffic No.1, Reader-Cost No.3
Message-ID: <8047@bsu-cs.bsu.edu>
Date: 4 Jul 89 06:47:19 GMT
Reply-To: xiong@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Bo Xiong)
Organization: CS Dept, Ball St U, Muncie, Indiana
Lines: 41
>From: reid@decwrl.dec.com (Brian Reid)
Newsgroups: news.lists,news.groups
Subject: TOP 40 NEWSGROUPS IN ORDER BY POPULARITY (JUN 89)
+-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide.
| +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population
| | +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all
| | | +-- Recent traffic (messages per month)
| | | | +-- Recent traffic (kilobytes per month)
| | | | | +-- Crossposting percentage
| | | | | | +-- Cost ratio: $US/month/reader
| | | | | | | +-- Share: % of newsreaders
| | | | | | | | who read this group.
V V V V V V V V
1 66000 3251 94% 52 116.5 0% 0.00 13.2% rec.humor.funny
...
19 31000 1517 90% 3579 8919.6 3% 0.46 6.2% soc.culture.china
...
40 22000 1108 94% 362 748.4 14% 0.06 4.5% misc.misc
Subject: TOP 40 NEWSGROUPS IN ORDER BY TRAFFIC VOLUME (JUN 89)
| | | | | | | |
V V V V V V V V
1 31000 1517 90% 3579 8919.6 3% 0.46 6.2% soc.culture.china
...
22 48000 2386 95% 1152 1672.4 16% 0.06 9.7% comp.sys.ibm.pc
...
Subject: TOP 40 NEWSGROUPS IN ORDER BY PER-READER COST (JUN 89)
| | | | | | | |
V V V V V V V V
1 7900 393 80% 1115 2860.3 4% 0.52 1.6% talk.religion.misc
2 8100 401 88% 121 2632.0 0% 0.51 1.6% comp.mail.maps
3 31000 1517 90% 3579 8919.6 3% 0.46 6.2% soc.culture.china
...
==============================================================================
.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!bionet!ames!ncar!umigw!jherr Sun Jul 16 13:32:13 PDT 1989
Article 20053 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!bionet!ames!ncar!umigw!jherr
>From: jherr@umigw.MIAMI.EDU (jack herrington)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: **Attn, Student leaders: On lobby**
Keywords: Help from a Professor. Arguments, sample letters and suggestions that you can use to approach Administrations
Message-ID: <408@umigw.MIAMI.EDU>
Date: 4 Jul 89 15:51:27 GMT
Lines: 296
To: The Chinese Students in America.
>From: Ernest Y.C. Lee, Ph.D.
Date: 2 July 1989
I am a Chinese American faculty member, and I have been trying to find a way
to help our Chinese students here.
In finding ways to help, I have been active in lobbying for support of
legislation to allow the students to remain in this country. It will not be
easy. It is important for you to gain the support of your faculty advisors,
and to find supporters who will lobby your local lawmakers. I know that
students in the major centers are well informed and organized. However, it is
important, even if there are only 10 chinese students in a small university, to
have faculty from that school write to their congressman and senators. What I
am sending you is an effort to help the students in the smaller places to take
some positive actions.
You can make your own arguments from your perspective. I have written an
argument you can use; it focuses less on the humanitarian aspect than on
political and practical reasons, and I think these arguments are important. A
copy is attached for your use. I attach a copy of a sample of an individual
letter your faculty can use as a model if they wish to; I also have attached
a sample of a statement with which to collect signatures for a petition drive.
I have made an example of a handout you can use for fund-raising, which
includes a written tribute to the fallen of Tienanmen Square. You should
design your own. People will want to know what they are giving money for. You
must be ready to give clear answers, and you should be very specific.
If I can be of any help, contact Mr Wu or contact me directly.
Sample letter which your faculty can use as a guide to drafting their own
letters.
Dear :
I am writing to urge your support for legislation which would allow the
Chinese students to stay in this country. As a faculty member I strongly
support legislative action to help them. I have deep concerns that these
individuals will be ignored as the Administration reaches some degree of
normalization of relationships with the government of China. Beside the deep
humanitarian convictions that such legislation is necessary and in keeping
with the American spirit I believe there are other cogent and pragmatic
arguments for the passage of such legislation which I would like to share with
you, although you may already be aware of them. These are as follows:
1. The way we treat the students and scholars here will be known throughout
China. Passage of legislation to prevent the enforced return of the Chinese
students and scholars here will send a clear unambiguous message of support.
It would be tragic, in the long term, to leave the Chinese people the
perception that the society whose traditions of freedom they wished to emulate,
and for whom many sacrificed their lives and their futures, would stand by
silently. To the Chinese government, we send an effective message of our
disapproval of their repression of the university students and scholars for
their demonstrations; if this repression continues, those scholars in this
country will have other options than an enforced return.
2. The return of these individuals is a major route for high technology
transfer from the U.S. to China. This type of legislation would be a real and
significant sanction in terms of technology transfer; its implementation would
be in the interests of the American people and it is a positive action. There
is a broad sense of feeling that some stronger sanctions be taken against the
Chinese government, but it is feeling mixed with frustration. Almost any type
of economic sanction would hurt the Chinese people, as well as our own business
interests, and would not be favored by the Administration, which needs and
should maintain relations with China. Legislation providing the Chinese
students in this country the option of permanent resident status would send a
loud and clear message which would not harm any individuals. These are
highly trained people working in our research universities and research
institutions, often at the cutting edge of U.S. technologies. They are by
and large a highly selected and dedicated group of people; to put it another
way, should the Chinese government effect the immediate recall of every one of
these people, the dislocation to basic research in the American Universities,
including areas of high technology, would be palpable. We should also
remember that the training of these individuals, while they make a real
contribution research productivity here, also represent a very large investment
in terms of real dollars on the part of the U.S.
3. It may be argued that only a few of the active leaders here in this country
actually face serious reprisal, and that it is in the best interests of all if
most of these people are returned to their country. Almost all of them
have taken part in some form of demonstration here. It is widely believed
among the students, correctly or incorrectly, that the Chinese Embassy
monitors their activities. Such information could have direct bearing on
the need to protect these students. Given the current directions of the
Chinese government, there can be little doubt in they will continue to act with
utter ruthlessness.
Yours sincerely,
Sample for signature drive for university faculty signatures:
These can be faxed to your local legislators with a covering letter.
(look in front pages of your phonebook)
We, the undersigned, urge your support for legislation which would allow the
Chinese students and scholars the option of remaining as permanent residents in
this country. Such legislation would not only be humanitarian and in keeping
with our country's role as the refuge and stronghold of democracy and would
send a loud and clear message of our anger at the repression of the student and
scholars in China. Such legislation would also have several pragmatic goals.
It would send a message of support to those brave individuals who demonstrated
for freedom but would also serve as significant sanction against technology
transfer to China. We feel it important that these students, for whom we
serve as teachers and role models, are not forced to return if they do not wish
to do so.
Name (print) Signature Position.
Why We Must Enact Legislation to Allow Visiting Students and Scholars from
China to Remain in the U.S
Ernest Y.C. Lee, Professor of Biochemistry
University of Miami School of Medicine
July 1 1989
In the wake of the pro-democracy demonstrations in Beijing, China, which after
a display of unprecedented, unexpected and utterly courageous support from the
general populace and its vicious suppression by the Chinese government, there
is growing debate on whether legislation should be enacted to permit those
Chinese students and scholars currently in the US to remain as permanent
residents should they so desire.
This is a complex issue which must be considered, beyond the immediate need to
shelter these individuals from reprisals, in terms of the broader impact of
such legislation on the future of the pro-democracy movement in China, on the
message it sends to the Chinese People and their government, on its impact on
technology transfer to China, and on its impact on American science and
technology research.
These people represent the second largest group of foreign students and
scholars in the U.S., numbering close to 40,000 by some estimates. While I do
not have a breakdown of the distribution of these individuals, judging by our
own experience here it would be fair to say that the bulk of these individuals
are postgraduate students and researchers concentrated in areas of technology
and science. It is important to appreciate how broadly the movement was
supported by the major universities in China; those students here, cannot be
regarded as an ideologically separate group of people. They identified with,
and supported this movement, and but for being in this country many of them
would have been part of the demonstrations in China. Almost to a man, they
have openly and vigorously demonstrated in our cities. For them, the
disillusionment, and the disappointment and anger is crushing. They are now
mobilizing, and on many campuses are establishing independent student
organizations, with the goal of linking to form a central organization.
Without a doubt, the pro-democracy movement of the Chinese university students
will remain active and alive in this country, if we permit them to stay.
A key question that may be asked is to what extent are these individuals
likely to be exposed to reprisal on their return ? This is an unknown at this
point but the recent actions and intentions of the government can leave little
doubt that any activists will be punished on their return. Almost all of them
have taken part in some form of demonstration here. All of the ones I have
spoken to believe and fear that their actions have been reported to the Chinese
Embassy. It is widely believed among the students that the Chinese Embassy
monitors their activities. The existence of such activities could have direct
bearing on the need to protect these students, or on their ability to organize
and support the pro-movement while they are here in this country.
What effect has the massacre of Tienanmen Square had on these young idealistic
students, who grew up in a more permissive environment in China following the
Cultural Revolution, and who have quietly adapted to life in the U.S. ? From
my contact with them the results have been massively truamatic. The effect on
them is one parallel to that of many Western observers, namely, the realization
that the regime as a totalitarian system, communism is incompatible to the type
of individual freedoms that are a given of existence in democratic country.
They have become exiles. Ironically, while none of the student demonstrators
considered themselves counter-revolutionaries, the current regime in China has
created millions of counter-revolutionaries. We need to also consider the
long term future. Many of China's current leaders were trained in Russia. If
China ever changes, and it will and must, it is likely that these future
leaders may include at all levels individuals who are trained and who may have
sojourned in the United States.
Foreign and scholars on J-1 visas generally need to meet a 2 year foreign
residency requirement before they can apply for permanent residency here,
unless they receive a waiver. This waiver is very, very rarely granted in the
case of Chinese nationals particularly when the process also requires a waiver
from the state authorities of the native country. Yes, there are mechanisms
whereby individuals can stay under the current laws but as long as it is the
State authorities of China who must give their blessings these mechanisms are
effectively meaningless.
Foreign graduate students and researchers, not only those from China, comprise
a significant skilled labor force in high technology research in the basic
sciences in the United States. Students from China are a common sight in
many graduate departments in the sciences, including molecular biology and
other high technology areas. Thus there should be no mistake about their
contribution to basic research in this country. These are highly trained
people working in our research universities and research institutions, often
at the cutting edge of U.S. technologies. To put it another way, should the
Chinese government effect the immediate recall of every one of these people,
the dislocation to basic research in the American Universities, including areas
of high technology, would be palpable. It is a two-way street, where they
gain training and education as well as provide a skilled labor force. We need
to re-consider also the general economics of the situation. It take several
years to train someone to the level where they can perform research
productively. At this time, does it really make sense to ship all of these
trained individuals home ? Indeed, a number of research leaders in the high
energy physics area have protested the current restrictions on their ability to
retain these researchers. For many of them, their promise as scientists will
be blunted since there are less than a handful of institutions which can
support research at a level comparable to that in the US. The argument that
this will constitute a brain drain is really one that is outdated. In
research, as in the economic arena, we are entering the age of free global
interchange. We are really talking about a brain drain, but in the reverse
sense. These are the brains that we have trained, in facilities that we have
paid for, in institutions that we have developed and it no longer makes sense
to send all of them on a one way street home.
The training of these students represents a significant if indirect form of
aid to China. Very few of the Chinese Scholars are supported to any extent by
their government. Most graduate students and visiting scholars are supported
by the graduate programs of their departments or by the research grants of
their mentors (this being a normal practice in scientific research). I was
once involved, several years ago, in calculating the cost of the training of a
graduate student in the basic biomedical sciences. If one includes the
stipend, the tuition which is usually waived, the costs of consumable supplies
and the overhead, faculty salaries etc., the figure easily reaches an estimate
of $300,000 per student over four years. In other words, this would be the
minimal estimate of the cost of duplicating their education, without
consideration of the cost of the building and equipment base. The cost of
training 10,000 graduate students is 3 billion dollars. The facts are that
these individuals represent 1) a very significant investment on the part of the
U.S. and 2) a major pipeline for technology transfer.
The current dilemma of the Administration is relevant to this issue, as it
considers the need to act as the representative of the American people in
expressing our outrage and anger at the events of Tienanmen square, and the
need as a nation, to maintain relationships with China. While many Americans
are disappointed at the feebleness of our response to the the Chinese
Government, it must be even more disheartening to the Chinese populace who went
out on the streets. As we will point out below, exercising the option to
provide refuge for the Chinese students and scholars in this country will serve
many of this country's purposes.
With this background, I believe it is humanitarian, wise, pragmatic and in the
interests of the American and Chinese people to enact legislation which would
provide the Chinese students and scholars presently in this country the option
of becoming permanent residents and prevent their enforced return .
1. Passage of such legislation will be a strong statement of support to the
the intellectuals and students of China. We must open our doors to those of
their brethren here, recognizing that they are refugees. The way we treat the
students and scholars here will be known throughout China. While there may
be administrative and alternate ways to achieve this aim, it would be shameful
to waste such an opportunity for a strong and symbolic gesture of support. It
would be tragic, in the long term, to leave the Chinese people the perception
that the society whose traditions of freedom they wished to emulate, and for
whom many sacrificed their lives and their futures, wants only to continue
business as usual. To the Chinese government, we send an effective message
of our disapproval of their repression of the university students and scholars
for their demonstrations; if this repression continues, those scholars in
this country will have other options than an enforced return. The deeper their
repression, the fewer will be those who return.
2. Such legislation will be a significant sanction in terms of technology
transfer. The return of these individuals is a major route for high technology
transfer from the U.S. to China. Any form of strong economic sanctions would
hurt the Chinese people, as well as our own business interests, and in the
light of the crucial importance of the development of free economy with
political freedoms already evident in China, have created a dilemma for our
lawmakers. Legislation providing refuge to the Chinese students in this
country would send a loud and clear message which would not harm any
individuals. This type of legislation would be a real and significant
sanction in terms of technology transfer; its implementation would be in the
interests of the American people and it is a positive action.
3. The creation of an emigre base of Chinese intellectuals would be a
significant threat and sanction to the hard-liners in the Chinese regime; it
will make the isolation and total repression of the Chinese intellectual class
in China impossible to maintain. For the long-term, we cannot afford, given
the massive convulsions caused by the recent demonstrations, to overlook the
importance of the Universities and intellectual class in China. While the
legislation would affect, relatively speaking, only a small number of people,
it would have an impact on an entire class of people in China on whose
convictions the future of China may rest, if it is to become a free nation.
These arguments make it clear that this legislation would fulfil many multiple
objectives. It is relatively speaking a small gesture, but one which will have
major impact, now and in the future, for U.S.-China relationships.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Any questions, call 305-547-6242 Dr. Lee or e-mail to me.
Keep going!
From polya!shelby!rutgers!ucsd!ucbvax!EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU!jzhang Sun Jul 16 13:33:13 PDT 1989
Article 20056 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!ucsd!ucbvax!EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU!jzhang
>From: jzhang@EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU (Ji Zhang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: How to make fake IDs?
Message-ID: <8907041847.AA11314@en.ecn.purdue.edu>
Date: 4 Jul 89 18:47:30 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 20
Freedom of expression is based on the absence of fear when making it.
This is not the case even in SCC. The fear on the CCP is real:
they started arresting students and intellectuals, intercepting
private letters to China, making harrassment/threat to their relatives
in China. Few people, if any, dare to write what they want to in their
letters to China. Now this fear has apparently spreaded to open forums
like SCC.
Fortunately, some people learned to
use fake IDs in the postings. Many people, however, stopped postings.
To encourage more postings, more information exchanges, we should
find a way to protect our identities.
Suggestions:
1). Broadcast a way in SCC to fake IDs.
2). Set up a common account in each university so that people who
want to post articles can do it through that account.
Can somebody give some help on these?
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!bloom-beacon!athena.mit.edu!zam Sun Jul 16 13:35:05 PDT 1989
Article 20060 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!bloom-beacon!athena.mit.edu!zam
>From: zam@athena.mit.edu (NorAazizam Bin MohdAasif)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Ted Koppel's TAM Report
Message-ID: <12433@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>
Date: 4 Jul 89 20:14:14 GMT
Sender: daemon@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: zam@athena.mit.edu (NorAazizam MohdAasif)
Distribution: na
Lines: 14
It is an irony that the students who were killed in the TAM while
promoting democracy did not heed to the basic concept of democracy:
the majorities' opinion must take precedent over the minorities'.
According to the Koppel's report, TAM the untold story, the students
chose to stay in the square eventhough the majority felt that it was
time to abandon their occupation of the square for the time being.
Well, the rest is history but I do wonder, if the students were really
looking for democracy, how come they didn't follow the concepts that
they were trying to promote?
Just wondering.....
-zam@athena.mit.edu
From polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcvax!ukc!cam-cl!lg Sun Jul 16 13:36:56 PDT 1989
Article 20062 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcvax!ukc!cam-cl!lg
>From: lg@cl.cam.ac.uk (Li GONG on jenny)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Another Joke
Message-ID: <811@scaup.cl.cam.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Jul 89 11:30:17 GMT
Sender: news@cl.cam.ac.uk
Reply-To: lg@cl.cam.ac.uk (Li GONG)
Organization: University of Cambridge Computer Laboratory, England.
Lines: 24
Posted: Tue Jul 4 12:30:17 1989
I read this somewhere.
----------------------------------------------
Two prison inmates are introducing themselves.
Inmate A: How did you get into here ? Burned anything, killed any soliders ?
Inmate B: No, I was just lazy.
Inmate A: How could you be put here for being lazy and doing nothing ?
Inmate B: Well, you know, everyone was concerned after THAT. We (a roommate
in my factory) had a discusion about the current situation. It
got quite heated, you know. Any I thought I could wait till this
morning to report him to the hot-line. However, he managed to
report me just after midnight.
____________________________________________________________________________
| It is not too bad that there might not be a tomorrow. |
| But being a Mainland Chinese makes today too difficult. |
| |
| Li GONG (+44223-334650) University of Cambridge, Computer Laboratory |
| Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QG, England |
| InterNet/CSnet : lg%cl.cam.ac.uk@cunyvm.cuny.edu (or @nsf.ac.uk) |
| UUCP : ...!ukc!nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk!cam-cl!lg Bitnet/EAN : lg%cl.cam@ac.uk |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From polya!shelby!rutgers!ucsd!sdcsvax!beowulf!liu Sun Jul 16 13:38:37 PDT 1989
Article 20067 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!ucsd!sdcsvax!beowulf!liu
>From: liu@beowulf.ucsd.edu (Liu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,ucsd.china
Subject: Re: How to make fake IDs?
Message-ID: <6753@sdcsvax.UCSD.Edu>
Date: 4 Jul 89 20:20:25 GMT
References: <8907041847.AA11314@en.ecn.purdue.edu>
Sender: nobody@sdcsvax.UCSD.Edu
Reply-To: liu@beowulf.UCSD.EDU (Liu)
Organization: EE/CS Dept. U.C. San Diego
Lines: 26
Xref: polya soc.culture.china:20067
In article <8907041847.AA11314@en.ecn.purdue.edu> jzhang@EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU (Ji Zhang) writes:
>Freedom of expression is based on the absence of fear when making it.
>This is not the case even in SCC. The fear on the CCP is real:
[lines deleted]
>Fortunately, some people learned to
>use fake IDs in the postings. Many people, however, stopped postings.
>
It is not good idea to teach fake posting in public,
including this SCC, because there are some very irresponsible people
who can drag the public into very ugly world.
>To encourage more postings, more information exchanges, we should
>find a way to protect our identities.
>
You may want to use command "chfn" to change the finger
entry which may protect you somehow.
See "man chfn" for details.
>Suggestions:
>2). Set up a common account in each university so that people who
> want to post articles can do it through that account.
Talk to your system manager for help.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!csd4.milw.wisc.edu!zhao Sun Jul 16 13:39:11 PDT 1989
Article 20068 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!csd4.milw.wisc.edu!zhao
>From: zhao@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (T.C. Zhao)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Ted Koppel's TAM Report
Message-ID: <3198@csd4.milw.wisc.edu>
Date: 4 Jul 89 20:45:22 GMT
References: <12433@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>
Sender: news@csd4.milw.wisc.edu
Reply-To: zhao@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (T.C. Zhao)
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee
Lines: 19
In article <12433@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> zam@athena.mit.edu (NorAazizam MohdAasif) writes:
>
>It is an irony that the students who were killed in the TAM while
>promoting democracy did not heed to the basic concept of democracy:
>the majorities' opinion must take precedent over the minorities'.
Well, I believe the decision that minority takes precedent over majority
was reached by an unanimous voting of the representatives, therefore,
I do think the students know the basic concept of democracy, although
it is doubtful if the decision is wise. It happened in history and will
happen again that a democratic process does not necessarily result in
a best resolution.
--
----------------------------------------------
Internet: zhao@csd4.milw.wisc.edu
UUCP: {...}!uwmcsd1!csd4!zhao
BITNET: zhao%csd4.milw.wisc.edu@WISCMAC3.BITNET
From polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!bloom-beacon!husc6!cmcl2!linli Sun Jul 16 13:43:04 PDT 1989
Article 20079 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!bloom-beacon!husc6!cmcl2!linli
>From: linli@cmcl2.NYU.EDU (xiaolin li)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: PLA Uses Dam-Dam-Bullet To Shoot Beijing Citizens Confirmed.
Keywords: It is an international crime.
Message-ID: <40771@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>
Date: 5 Jul 89 00:01:09 GMT
Organization: New York University
Lines: 26
Further story from my wife who went back to Beijing during 5/20 to 6/21.
She told me that she saw the trace of explosive bullet (dam-damp-bullet) on
Beijing's 107 trolley bus.
It was 6/4 Sunday. After the darkest night in the Chinese history, she
went donw stair where millitary trucks were blocked the day before. There
were several buses stoping outside. These were 107 trolley-buses which were
used to block road the day before and had been moved to the road side.
Many people were looking at the traces of bullets which were shot last
night. Several traces were big holes, which are evidently by dam-dam-bullets.
Some people shouted "Hei! Look, Zha Zhi (explosive bullet)!"
Another evidence is in the story I gave several days ago. A 12 year
old boy cursed sodiers on the way to Xiehe Hospital. The sodiers
immediately returned bullets. Several people died and some wounded.
The wounded were sent to Xiehe Hospital and their arms and legs had
to be cut in order to save their lives. Doctors said they were shot by
"Zha Zhi (explosive bullet)".
My wife did not know that dam-dam-bullet is banned by the international
society and is forbiden to be used in any war. She said if she had
known that, she would have taken picture of that hole.
I don't understand why these CCP animals are so cruel and barbarous
toward the country's own people. Deng-Li-Yang should be hanged.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!cmcl2!linli Sun Jul 16 13:43:35 PDT 1989
Article 20082 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!cmcl2!linli
>From: linli@cmcl2.NYU.EDU (xiaolin li)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Wuer Kaixi and Yan Jiaqi Appeared in CNN.
Keywords: Let us unite our strength to fight against Deng-Li-Yang.
Message-ID: <40772@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>
Date: 5 Jul 89 00:54:48 GMT
Organization: New York University
Lines: 5
Wuer Kaixi and Yan Jiaqi made a joint speech in Paris today.
They condenmed the Deng-Li-Yang for their brutal killing of
students and Beijing citizens. They claimed that the TAM Square
movement is not over.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU!jzhang Sun Jul 16 13:44:13 PDT 1989
Article 20084 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU!jzhang
>From: jzhang@EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU (Ji Zhang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: One bullet costs less than a life
Message-ID: <8907050222.AA27876@en.ecn.purdue.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 02:22:24 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 13
What the CCP have done in China reminds me of a diary quote by
Gobal, the second man in the Nazi regime, before he committed
suicide at the end of the war. Gobal was mostly responsible for the
mass killing of Jews and for the Nazi propaganda:
The quote goes like:
----
If there is any truth I learned in my life, it has to be the
total dispise of human being.
----
This has to be the truth Deng-Li-Yang regime has learned in their lives.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!bsu-cs!xiong Sun Jul 16 13:44:34 PDT 1989
Article 20085 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!bsu-cs!xiong
>From: xiong@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Bo Xiong)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Casualty Of Tsinghua (Qinghua) University
Summary: I am helping to post this
Message-ID: <8063@bsu-cs.bsu.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 01:26:59 GMT
Reply-To: xiong@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Bo Xiong)
Organization: CS Dept, Ball St U, Muncie, Indiana
Lines: 12
======================= Message From Vancouver, Canada ======================
Casualty of Tsinghua University:
3 killed, 14 injured, 1 missing, and 30 arrested.
One girl from the Dept of Mechanical Engineering was arrested in
TianJin because she talked about what she saw happened in TAMS,
two others were locked up due to carrying illegal flies.
==============================================================================
.
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF Sun Jul 16 13:45:24 PDT 1989
Article 20086 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF
>From: SHENF@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Zhiyong Shen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Why were PLA soldiers so ruthless -- here is one answer
Message-ID: <2541@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 02:19:05 GMT
Sender: news@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu
Organization: Ohio State University
Lines: 34
Many reasons were given for the incredible brutality displayed by PLA
soldiers in the Beijing Massacre. Many people have given different
explanations. Here is one more from China (incidently some student
delegate has also alleged it).
Many soldiers were peasants and they were told that they would be
rewarded by the state if they "act bravely" against civilians.
The superb reward is a "City Residency Permit" (Cheng Shi Hu Kou)!
As Tom said, nobody would have believed it if it were written in a novel.
This is just another example.
After I pointed out that peasants are the most oppressed class in
China, someone disagreed and claimed that they should support CCP because
of their "huge increase of wealth". I was quite puzzled then. Now I am
suddenly enlightened. Y 10,000 or a "City Resident Permit" is truly
"huge increase of wealth" for a poor Chinese peasant. No wonder
some of them would kill to get it!
Dear friends, you may not know what CRP means to a poor peasant from
PRC, let me just give you an anology.
A poor capesino in Nicaragua would risk everything to reach the US to find
a heaven on earth. A poor PRC peasant would do the same if he or she
could get a CRP. They have sold their bodies for it. They have spent
"huge wealth" for it. Now some of them can kill to get it. It is a
sad, sad story. I don't think "sad" is even remotely adequate here,
but I don't know what else to say or even how to think.
Zhiyong
Disclaimer: I don't believe the imaginary Nicaraguan capesino would kill to
get to the US.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watmath!watdragon!tiger!hmrchan Sun Jul 16 13:45:40 PDT 1989
Article 20087 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watmath!watdragon!tiger!hmrchan
>From: hmrchan@tiger.waterloo.edu (Ricky Chan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: If you know the information of these people, please contact us.
Message-ID: <14877@watdragon.waterloo.edu>
Date: 4 Jul 89 23:52:54 GMT
Sender: daemon@watdragon.waterloo.edu
Reply-To: hmrchan@tiger.waterloo.edu (Ricky Chan)
Organization: U. of Waterloo, Ontario
Lines: 16
We would like to invite Wu'er Kai Xi, Su Shaozhi and those student
leaders who had participated the democracy demonstration in TAM Sq.
to the Conference of Chinese Student Leaders in Canada to be held
on July 14 to July 17 in University of Manitoba, Canada.
Could someone who has contact or who knows the whereabouts of the
people listed above pass our message to them, or he can send us
the information of how we can contact these them.
Ricky Chan e-mail: hmrchan@tiger.waterloo.edu
Terence Kwan e-mail: nctkwan@watdragon.waterloo.edu
[ Action Committee For Human Rights & Democracy In China ]
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!KENTVM.BITNET!GXU Sun Jul 16 13:46:04 PDT 1989
Article 20089 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!KENTVM.BITNET!GXU
>From: GXU@KENTVM.BITNET ("Xu, Gang")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Ads for News Digest
Message-ID: <8907050301.AA26658@jade.berkeley.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 02:55:07 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 31
*************************************************
* *
* *
* NEWS DIGEST *
* *
* *
* . a selected news service *
* . run by Chinese student volunteers *
* . delivered though e-mail daily *
* . news from SCC, China-net & other sources *
* . for those who care about China *
* . for those who don't have time to scan *
* thousands of lines of news each day *
* *
* *
* -------------------------------------- *
* *
* . Request of subscription to *
* *
* GXU@KENTVM.BITNET *
* *
* -------------------------------------- *
* *
* . sample of subscribing request *
* *
* SUBSCRIBE NEWS DIGEST FOR *
* GXU@KENTVM.BITNET *
* KENT STATE UNIV., OHIO *
* *
*************************************************
From polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!bsu-cs!xiong Sun Jul 16 13:46:27 PDT 1989
Article 20092 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!bsu-cs!xiong
>From: xiong@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Bo Xiong)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Rally On July 9 At Toronto, Everyone Welcomed
Summary: I am helping to post this
Message-ID: <8065@bsu-cs.bsu.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 02:20:39 GMT
Reply-To: xiong@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Bo Xiong)
Organization: CS Dept, Ball St U, Muncie, Indiana
Lines: 15
>From FYCHU@McMaster.CA Tue Jul 4 20:42:08 1989
===============================================================================
Can you post this message for me, especially to all netters in Canada
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The mass originally scheduled to be held in Toronto to protest against
continuing persecution in China has been postponed to July 9, 2:00 pm
in Toronto's City Hall Nathan Phillips Square. The Toronto Committee of
Concerned Chinese Canadians Supporting the Democratic Movement in China
call upon all Canadians to join in the protest. The Committee also
ask other groups in other Canadian cities to do similar protest on
that dates.
===============================================================================
.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!mailrus!sharkey!itivax!umich!yhe Sun Jul 16 13:46:52 PDT 1989
Article 20093 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!mailrus!sharkey!itivax!umich!yhe
>From: yhe@zippy.eecs.umich.edu (Youda He)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: PLA Uses Dam-Dam-Bullet To Shoot Beijing Citizens Confirmed.
Keywords: It is an international crime.
Message-ID: <172@zip.eecs.umich.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 01:39:00 GMT
References: <40771@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>
Reply-To: yhe@zip.eecs.umich.edu.UUCP (Youda He)
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor, MI
Lines: 1
Like Li Peng said: "We have not other kind of Bullet, we use what we have!".
From polya!shelby!rutgers!columbia!cunixc!cunixd.cc.columbia.edu!seymour Sun Jul 16 13:48:20 PDT 1989
Article 20096 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!columbia!cunixc!cunixd.cc.columbia.edu!seymour
>From: seymour@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (James D. Seymour)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Prisoner update B + important msg for non-US Netters
Message-ID: <1651@cunixc.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 02:51:53 GMT
Sender: news@cunixc.cc.columbia.edu
Reply-To: seymour@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (James D. Seymour)
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 67
| IMPORTANT NOTE TO NON-US NETers.
|
| Hereafter these Prisoner lists will be posted for "US" only
| rather than "world" as has been done until now. On request,
| we will mail or Email the material to those interested elsewhere.
Update "B" to "Arrests in China, List 2"
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
(For the basic list read Article 21734
For Update "A" read Article 21845)
Huang Debei (Yellow Virtue north), KMT spelling: Huang Teh-pei). "Zili wanbao"
reporter. Arrested outside his hotel on July 3, the day after meeting (or
attempting to meet) with Wang Dan, q.v..
Wang Dan. The Pro-KMT Shijie ribao reported on Jul 3 that Taiwanese reporter
Xu2 Lu4 had said that another Taiwanese reporter [Huang Debei, q.v.] met
meeting with Wang Dan in Beijing. They found they were followed by police.
They ran away. That reporter was arrested. Xu believes Wang Dan is arrested
also." According to other reports, Wang went into hiding in south China after
June 4, but then returned to Beijing. His arrest cannot be confirmed. NYT 4
July 89.
Wang Dan, 20 yo, was a history student at Beijing University. He once
said: "I'm not afraid. I've nothing to be afraid of. I don't think they will
be able to imprison me for as long as Wei Jingsheng." He became the most
conspicuous leader of the democratic movement around May 23, when many found
Wuer Kaixi insufficiently militant. Wang was conscious of the movement's
shortcomings. "I think that the student movements in the future should be
firmly based on something solid, such as the democratization of campus life,
or the realization of civil rights according to the Constitution. Otherwise,
the result is chaos. NYT 3 June 89 p 4 (has AP photo of him).
Ed Lai adds the following (though he will probably modestly disclaim
credit!): "The story [from Shijie Ribao, July 3] is like this: Wang Dan
contacted the reporter. When they met, the reporter discover that there was
security personal around, so he picked up Wang Dan and tried to get away. But
more cars were following, so the reporter tried to distract them by jumping
out of the car, after agreeing upon a way of contact if Wang Dan escapes
safely. But the reporter found the security people continue to follow the car.
Wang Dan had not contacted them for 24 hours, and the car driver had not been
located either. In other words, it does not look good." Indeed.
The police have also tried to arrest Bai Hua (woman), director of ORCC
(Opinion Research ...), a private org, but she had gone into hiding.
-=<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Jim Seymour a/k/a Sima Jin4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=-
| MCI Mail: 1640044 Internet: seymour@cunixc.cc.columbia.edu |
| Fax: 212-749-1497 Backroom BBS: china wasp |
| Disclaimer: I alone am responsible for posting of the |
| above, and (unless otherwise indicated) for the content. |
↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU!aynang Sun Jul 16 13:48:36 PDT 1989
Article 20097 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU!aynang
>From: aynang@EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU (Yang Aynang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: I got Chai ling's tape
Message-ID: <8907050414.AA29776@en.ecn.purdue.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 04:14:31 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 10
Please call me to make sure how can I give that tape to you.
also, they send another "voice" tape from another student who is considered
as a witness in the TAM masscrade.
They also increase the cost from $12.00 to $15.00. So we have to send $3.00
more to them.
All these info/stuff are shiped via a big envelope.
--aynang
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!husc6!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!me!philip Sun Jul 16 13:49:09 PDT 1989
Article 20098 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!husc6!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!me!philip
>From: philip@me.utoronto.ca (Philip Cheng AWN)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Another-joke
Message-ID: <89Jul4.235415edt.19022@me.utoronto.ca>
Date: 5 Jul 89 03:54:07 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto Mechanical Engineering
Lines: 9
Talking about democracy, it reminds me a joke that I read from Reader's
digest long time ago.
An American and a Chinese were arguing which country was better,
i.e., U.S.A. or China. The American said: " We have freedom of speech
in U.S.A. I can go to New York Central Park to criticize openly the Government
of United States without any punishment." The Chinese said:"So what!
We also have freedom of speech in China. I can go to Tiananmen Square
and criticize openly the Government of United States without any punishment."
From polya!shelby!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!eecae!cps3xx!usenet Sun Jul 16 13:49:31 PDT 1989
Article 20099 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!eecae!cps3xx!usenet
>From: usenet@cps3xx.UUCP (Usenet file owner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,soc.culture.indian
Subject: LAST CALL: Asian Games boycott letter
Message-ID: <3648@cps3xx.UUCP>
Date: 5 Jul 89 03:13:53 GMT
Reply-To: raja@frith.egr.msu.edu ()
Organization: Michigan State University, Engineering, E. Lansing
Lines: 49
Xref: polya soc.culture.china:20099 soc.culture.indian:17463
Following the suggestion of a Chinese
student, the following letter asks for
a boycott of the 1990 Beijing Asian Games.
This is the last call for signatures. I
want to mail this letter on Fri/Sat. It
will be sent to several Indian newspapers, etc.
If you want to support it, mail raja@frith.egr.msu.edu
or raja%frith.egr.msu.edu@uunet.uu.net.
Anyone (Chinese/Americans/Indians) welcome.
If preferred, real names of Chinese students
will not be shown. Many thanks to those who
already responded.
Narayan Sriranga Raja.
=================================================================
DRAFT LETTER
We, a group of students and others in the United States, are
writing this letter in the hope that the Indian people will take
concrete action to express their abhorrence for the bloodstained
dictatorship in China.
A few short weeks ago, the government cruelly shattered the demo-
cratic aspirations of the Chinese people. Idealistic young peo-
ple, many still in their teens, were mowed down or crushed by
tanks. They were guilty merely of desiring basic liberties like
a free press and elected student unions. Even now, more victims
are being hunted down for killing. The dictatorship is brazenly
lying to its people, blaming the victims and even denying that
any massacre occured.
The Asian Games are being held next year in Beijing. Coming so
soon after these atrocities, it will be more a political than a
sports event. The dictators will use it as an opportunity to em-
phasize their legitimacy and international respectability. Just
as India does not have sports links with South Africa, we feel it
would be inappropriate to send a team to Beijing next year.
For once, let us forget cynical politics. Let us stand by one
billion suffering people, not with their oppressors.
This letter is signed by <nn> Chinese, <nn> Americans, <nn> In-
dians, and <nn> others.
Best regards,
<signatures>
=================================================================
From polya!shelby!rutgers!ukma!psuvm.bitnet!psuecl!a2t Sun Jul 16 13:50:09 PDT 1989
Article 20101 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!ukma!psuvm.bitnet!psuecl!a2t
>From: a2t@psuecl.bitnet
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Halfway around the world?
Message-ID: <42997@psuecl.bitnet>
Date: 4 Jul 89 22:29:36 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Lab, Pennsylvania State University
Lines: 8
Last night when I was switching the channel, I came across a
TNN program, where a singer was singing a song, that soon caught my
attention, since she was singing something about TAM square and Beijing.
I only remember few words from the song, something like:
halfway around the world
a candle is burning....
Does any one on the net know anything about this song?
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy!lite Sun Jul 16 13:50:42 PDT 1989
Article 20103 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy!lite
>From: lite@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu (Lite Lin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Invite Wu'er Kaixi and Yan Jiaqi to US
Message-ID: <2424@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 01:13:40 GMT
Lines: 35
Wu'er Kaixi and Yan Jiaqi appeared on TV tonight. Their appearance
was video-taped. Obviously, they were not (yet) able to make their way to
US. There have been speculations that the two are either in Hong Kong
or in Paris, trying to get American visa, but nothing can be confirmed.
It seems to me that the trouble is, the US government is having a
hard time trying to decide whether to grant visas to the two, because that
would surely further hurt the already shaky relationship between US and
China. That fear is of course, well justified. Many people believe that
the US would accept Wu'er Kaixi and Yan Jiaqi just as it did in the case
of Fang Lizhi. However, there is big difference here. American Embassy
in Beijing did provided sanctuary to Fang Lizhi, but that's in part because
it HAD to. Fang was asking for protection; he was in immediate danger.
Wu'er and Yan are trying to come to organize a polical movement, that
would bring trouble to US - China relationship; plus, the two are NOT
in immediate danger.
I assume most people would agree that we NEED Wu'er and Yan in US.
Many organizations have been set up after the Beijing massacre, but we
are not unified; we need some well known and respected people to unify
the organizations and to serve as spokesmen. Therefore, it seems to me,
there is one thing we can do to help, that is to pursuade some best
universities to invite the two to come (Wu'er as a graduate student, Yan
as a fellow, probably. Liu Binyan is a Nieman (?) fellow at Harvard).
If we are successful, Wu'er and Yan would have a much better chance to come,
also, they wouldn't have to depend on other sources econmically (If they
had to depend on a "sponsor" other than a university, it would be difficult
for them to be independent politically).
--
Let us do something, because so many people were murdered, if not for
anything else.
Let us do something to bring about a better China.
Lite
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!pasteur!ernie.Berkeley.EDU!timlee Sun Jul 16 13:51:22 PDT 1989
Article 20107 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!pasteur!ernie.Berkeley.EDU!timlee
>From: timlee@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Timothy J. Lee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Responding to Pro Government
Message-ID: <15164@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 5 Jul 89 06:26:46 GMT
References: <8907040816.AA17943@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> <4YgAfQy00XcS84ynkC@andrew.cmu.edu>
Sender: news@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: timlee@ernie.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Timothy J. Lee)
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 24
In article <4YgAfQy00XcS84ynkC@andrew.cmu.edu> ls2r+prc@andrew.cmu.edu writes:
>Everyone should address the issues raised by his comments:
>1) Anarchy -- unacceptable (so is violence)
The students were peaceful until they were attacked.
>2) Personal attacks -- is this democracy? Shutting people up is what
>everyone wants?
Freedom of speech does not allow harassment or assault. One is free
to speak, free to listen, and free to not listen, but not free to
force someone else to listen or speak or free to prevent someone else
from listening or speaking. That is the principle of freedom of speech.
Note that democracy != freedom. One can exist without the other, but
such situations are usually unstable.
>3) The government is still the supreme law of the land and should not
>be challenged.
Government must be by law, not by personal privilege and power.
From polya!shelby!agate!pasteur!ernie.Berkeley.EDU!timlee Sun Jul 16 13:52:11 PDT 1989
Article 20109 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!pasteur!ernie.Berkeley.EDU!timlee
>From: timlee@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Timothy J. Lee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Another-joke
Message-ID: <15165@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 5 Jul 89 06:39:15 GMT
References: <89Jul4.235415edt.19022@me.utoronto.ca>
Sender: news@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: timlee@ernie.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Timothy J. Lee)
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 10
In article <89Jul4.235415edt.19022@me.utoronto.ca> philip@me.utoronto.ca (Philip Cheng AWN) writes:
|An American and a Chinese were arguing which country was better,
|i.e., U.S.A. or China. The American said: " We have freedom of speech
|in U.S.A. I can go to New York Central Park to criticize openly the Government
|of United States without any punishment." The Chinese said:"So what!
|We also have freedom of speech in China. I can go to Tiananmen Square
|and criticize openly the Government of United States without any punishment."
In the PRC there is freedom of speech.
In the USA there is freedom after speech.
From polya!shelby!decwrl!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!ucsd!sdcsvax!beowulf!liu Sun Jul 16 13:53:36 PDT 1989
Article 20117 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!ucsd!sdcsvax!beowulf!liu
>From: liu@beowulf.ucsd.edu (Liu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Invite Wu'er Kaixi and Yan Jiaqi to US
Message-ID: <6759@sdcsvax.UCSD.Edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 06:46:01 GMT
References: <2424@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Sender: nobody@sdcsvax.UCSD.Edu
Lines: 5
Lite was talking about bring in Wu'er Kaixi and Yan Jiaqi to
the US. I think this is a good idea. In terms of
technicality, there are many options, for example,
we can ask the US government grant them tourist visas.
I am sure Bush should have thought about that.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!ndcheg!uceng!ysu Sun Jul 16 13:53:58 PDT 1989
Article 20119 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!ndcheg!uceng!ysu
>From: ysu@uceng.UC.EDU (yang su)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Ted Koppel's TAM Report
Summary: some facts will help you
Message-ID: <1397@uceng.UC.EDU>
Date: 5 Jul 89 01:05:56 GMT
References: <12433@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>
Distribution: na
Organization: Univ. of Cincinnati, College of Engg.
Lines: 16
In article <12433@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>, zam@athena.mit.edu (NorAazizam Bin MohdAasif) writes:
> According to the Koppel's report, TAM the untold story, the students
> chose to stay in the square eventhough the majority felt that it was
> time to abandon their occupation of the square for the time being.
> Well, the rest is history but I do wonder, if the students were really
> looking for democracy, how come they didn't follow the concepts that
> they were trying to promote?
>
I wish the following fact would help you understand the situation.
Yes, the student leaders at the TAM square finally decided to
retreat from the square and student representatives were sent to negotiate
with the army so that thay could leave safely. But BEFORE the decision
could be spread to the students in the square (which has the size to hold
over one million people), the electricity had been cut and student controlled
loudspeakers distroyed, then begun the massacre!!!
From polya!shelby!rutgers!usc!bbn!mailrus!caen.engin.umich.edu!elh Sun Jul 16 13:54:15 PDT 1989
Article 20120 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!usc!bbn!mailrus!caen.engin.umich.edu!elh
>From: elh@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ed_Han)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Ted Koppel's TAM Report
Message-ID: <443be36e.14df5@ulsoy.engin.umich.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 08:01:00 GMT
References: <12433@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>
Reply-To: elh@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ed_Han)
Distribution: na
Organization: caen
Lines: 16
In article <12433@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> zam@athena.mit.edu (NorAazizam MohdAasif) writes:
>
>It is an irony that the students who were killed in the TAM while
>promoting democracy did not heed to the basic concept of democracy:
>the majorities' opinion must take precedent over the minorities'.
>According to the Koppel's report, TAM the untold story, the students
>chose to stay in the square eventhough the majority felt that it was
>time to abandon their occupation of the square for the time being.
As also reported by Koppel, that decision is also a democratic result--
they have reached consensus early on that the majority will obey the
minority--this may explain that majority can just be as wrong as the
minority. However, if we recall the decision to make a hunger strike,
there could be no hunger strike based on the majority opinion.
What I learned is that we should have a party that will make correct
policies, strategies, and decisions to lead the democratic movement.
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!pasteur!helios.ee.lbl.gov!nosc!humu!uhccux!ghee Sun Jul 16 13:54:35 PDT 1989
Article 20121 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!pasteur!helios.ee.lbl.gov!nosc!humu!uhccux!ghee
>From: ghee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Ghee Keong Lim)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Message-ID: <4292@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 10:13:57 GMT
References: <8906282309.AA29013@ccu.UManitoba.CA>
Organization: University of Hawaii
Lines: 25
In article <8906282309.AA29013@ccu.UManitoba.CA>, andchan@ccu.UManitoba.CA (Andrew Chan) writes:
> This is a follow up of my previous mail. In order to get these stickers
> distributed as widely as possible, we are offering them at near production
> price.
>
> We honour orders of a single sticker to 10,000 of them. :-)
>
> Quantity: 1 - 499 - 25 cents each
> 500 and up - 20 cents each
>
> *** Plus postage *** (Same price for U.S. or Canadian fund)
>
> The deadline for the first batch of order will be morning of June 30th.
>
> If you are ordering large number of these stickers, you can request for a
> sample through FAX machines.
>
> Once again, these stickers are good for car bumpers, trunks, office doors
> and etc. They are of the size of 215 mm by 102 mm with Chinese words
> "Do Not Forget Tiananmen" and English words "Remember Tiananmen". The base
> color is white and with the words in black and red ink.
Hi! I would like to order 10 bumper stickers from you. If I get more
response form the students, I will order more. Please give me your
address so that I can send you the check. Thanks.
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!hkucs.UUCP!kwchan Sun Jul 16 13:55:01 PDT 1989
Article 20122 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!hkucs.UUCP!kwchan
>From: kwchan@hkucs.UUCP (Chan Ki Wa)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: China & HK News
Message-ID: <8907060239.AA16772@hkucs.HKU.HK>
Date: 6 Jul 89 02:39:51 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 292
Source : South China Morning Post
Date : 5th July 89
Send time : 6:40 pm HKT
Sender : hkucs!kwchan@uunet.uu.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------
[South China Morning Post, Wednesday, July 5, 1989]
ACTIVISTS IN HIDING LAUNCH NEW CAMPAIGN FOR FREEDOM
Two leaders of China's movement for freedom, who fled a bloody crack-down
in Beijing, called for a day of mourning yesterday and announced the
establishment of an organisation to fight for democracy in their homeland.
The organisation is to be known as the Joint Committee of Chinese Student
Movement and Democracy Movement (JCCSMDM).
In a videotaped statement issued from their hidding place in the West,
believed to be Paris, the student leader, Mr Wu'erkaixi, and a top
intellectual dissident, Mr Yan Jiaqi, called on "people who love freedom
around the world" to support their movement for sweeping political change
in China.
They also renounced violence, saying that Chinese leader Mao Tsetung's
adage that political power grows out of the barrel of a gun "cannot lead
China to true freedom, liberty and democracy.
"The movement for democracy has flooded its banks like the Yellow River,"
read the statement released by supporters of the students activists in
Hongkong.
"It is unstopperable. Despite the unprecedented white terror, the Chinese
student movement and the movement for democracy are still alive. At
present China is shrouded in silence but that just means that a new and
bigger storm is brewing."
The pair, leaders of two illegal organisations who are wanted by Chinese
police, announced that in the near future, a "Foundation for China's
Student Movement and Democracy Movement" will be set up to solicit
donations from overseas Chinese for the cause of democracy.
The proposed that students and citizens who were gunned down by the
Chinese Army in Beijing on June 3 and June 4 be awarded the Nobel Prize.
One woman student leader, Chai Ling, of Beijing Normal University, has
already been nominated for the 1990 prize by two members of the Norwegian
Parliament.
The statement called on all Chinese to set aside September 12, 100 days
from the June 4 invasion of Beijing, as a day of remembrance for the
hundreds who died in and around Tiananmen Square.
It also set June 4 as a day of national mourning for China.
The pair savagely attacked the senior Chinese leader, Mr Deng Xiaoping,
the Prime Minister, Mr Li Peng, and President Yang Shangkun, who ordered
the crack-down.
The dissidents called for a public trial of the leaders of the crack-down
in Tiananmen and for the restoring of the Goddess of Democracy a statue
made by students, to "her rightful place in the middle of the Square.
"The massacre, carried out by the reactionary clique of Deng, Li and Yang
was not just a crime against China's students and people but also a
challenge against the basic principles of life and all humanity," the
statement said.
The two placed the recent student movement in an historical context of
China's recent campaigns for democracy.
They said the 1979 movement for democracy in China "echoes the demands
from the Soviet and East European people which have sparked these countries
to abandon Stalinism and proceed gradually toward political
democratisation.
"Deng Xiaoping and his clique are reactionaries because they have stood on
the opposite side of this global trend from the very beginning," they said.
The statement cited Mr Deng's prosecution of leading Chinese dissident Wei
Jungsheng, who was sentence to 15 years in 1979 for calling for democracy
in China, and the launching of a political campaign in 1987 to fight
"bourgeois liberalisation", or influences from the West.
The purpose of these campaigns, the dissidents said, was to "set a new
example for the international communist movement.
"In other words, they are stubbornly insisting on Stalinistic
authoritarianism and dictatorship to rule the people."
MR Wu'erkaixi and Mr Yan said they met to discuss the new organisation
from June 27 to July 3. Although the statement did not disclose the
location, Hongkong activists said the pair were in Paris.
"The meeting unanimously decided that the June 4 massacre is not the end
of the 1989 Chinese democratic movement; rather it is the beginning of a
new consciousness of democracy in China." they wrote.
In a separate message after the joint statement, Mr Yan, a former
political science researcher at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, said
the "the future of China and Chinese democracy have been built up with the
blood of countless students and citizens.
"Chinese history has consisted of a dynastic cycle," he said. "After and
emperor and a dynasty have fallen, a new emperor and dynasty rise up.
"The June 4 massacre has shattered the mask of this so-called People's
Republic and exposed the face of a bona fide totalitarian dynasty."
Mr Yan pointed out that after realising this, the people of China should
know where the direction of reform is. "China's future lies in democracy,
freedom, the rule of law and human rights."
Mr Yan and Mr Wu'erkaixi said that the purpose of JCCSMDM is to unify
democratic forces inside and outside China, using the donations of overseas
Chinese.
Chinese students and overseas Chinese have established dozens of
organisations to promote democracy but their movement has been fraught with
internal splits.
-Agencies.
-----------------------------------------------------
Crying, is our motherland!
Crying, are our mothers, our brother and sisters!
Crying, our students and scholars in alien countries!
Where is the hope of our nation!
-----------------------------------------------------
[South China Morning Post, Wednesday, July 5, 1989]
HOWE PUTS SEVEN-POINT PLAN FOR HK
[By Simon Macklin and Andy Ho]
The Foreign Secretary Sir Geoffrey Howe, yesterday offered a so-called
"flexible" scheme to allow certain categories of Hongkong residents to
qualify for the right of abode in Britain.
The flexible scheme was covered in a seven point plan of action that Sir
Geoffrey is taking back to London, which also includes:
- Alerting Britain's allies, including its European partners, Japan and the
United States to the need for the international community to rally round
Hongkong.
- Introducing a Bill of Rights.
- Heading local views on how to speed up the development of representative
government in Hongkong.
- Ensuring that the Basic Law conforms with the Sino-British Joint
Declaration, particularly in relation to Beijing's power to impose martial
law in Hongkong.
- Continuing to make progress with Hanoi over the early repatriation of
the boat people who are screened out illegal economic migrants.
- Pressing the Beijing leadership to take early and tangible action to
restore confidence in China's intentions towards Hongkong.
But Sir Geoffrey - who left for London last night after a three-day visit
to assess the extent of anxiety in the territory after the June 4 massacre
in Beijing's Tiananmen Square - would neither reveal the vetting procedures
for the nationality scheme, nor would he say who in London or Hongkong
would be responsible for the selection.
"We intend to make an early announcement of a scheme that will make some
provision for people in both the public and private sectors on the basis not
simply of connections with Britain, but also of the value of their service
to Hongkong," he said.
The objective of the scheme would be to give people the confidence to
remain in Hongkong rather than encourage them to leave.
It has been suggested that the privileged categories could include police
officers, Crown servants, ethnic minorities and war widows.
However, Sir Geoffrey stressed that the British approach must be as
non-divisive as possible.
He acknowledged the need for an early reply to Hongkong's demand for a
British "insurance policy" in the event of an emergency before and after
the 1997 handover, but refused to provide assurances for all the people in
the territory.
Sir Geoffrey would not go beyond the now well-entrenched line of the
British Government on the nationality issue. He said it was impossible for
Britain to sign a "blank cheque" to offer the right of abode to all 3.25
million British subjects.
"Some of what I have had to say has not been welcome. But it would have
been dishonest of me to promise what no British Government can deliver, to
issue insurance polices for all that we should be able to honour," he said.
On China, Sir Geoffrey said Beijing had in 24 hours destroyed 10 years'
work in building up the trust of the Hongkong people.
He conceded the British Government could not be "sure" the Chinese
authorities would stand by their promises made in 1984 Joint Declaration.
"It will take a great deal of time and there is a huge gap of broken
confidence to be overcome, but everyone agrees the Joint Declaration is the
best starting point," he said.
The Joint Declaration, he added had been placed in "jeopardy" but what had
happened in Beijing was as disturbing to the people of Britain as it was to
the people of Hongkong.
Trust in the Chinese authorities needed to be restored through a whole
series of actions, he said.
"The way in which they (the authorities) in Beijing treat their own people
from now on, will need to be transformed from what is now happening. The
way in which they respond to the case that we make in relation to Basic Law
will need to be very seriously examined."
But he said there was no single action any Chinese leader could take which
would "wipe the slate clean".
The British Government would try to "mobilise" would opinion against the
actions taken by the Chinese authorities.
There had already been contact with embassies in both Beijing and London
and Sir Geoffrey said he would personally be looking for further
opportunities to persuade the Chinese authorities.
The Foreign Secretary welcomed the condemnation of China by the United
States and other governments, but warned against imposing further trade
sanctions. The best way of achieving contact with a "sensible leadership"
in Beijing was through retaining economic contacts, he said.
He reiterated there was nothing which could be done to prevent Hongkong
reverting to Chinese sovereignty in eight years' time.
"One comes back to the fact, you see, that Hongkong as a result of this
historical eccentricity which has not made any of our lives any easier, is
held on the terms of the lease that expires in 1997."
Sir Geoffrey said he had heard criticism that the actions of the British
Government might make it more difficult to administer the territory. But
he said he was confident the Hongkong Government would be able to continue
running the territory based on its previous experience.
Talking to senior British financial and industrial interests at the
Hongkong Club last night, the Foreign Secretary insisted the British
Government would "make sure" as far as it could that countries did not
impose sanctions on China, thereby affecting Hongkong's economy.
He urged them to "keep stuck in" because there were still long-term
prospects for the Chinese market and Chinese relations with the wider
world.
"We have to pick up the pieces and put it back again," he said.
Sir Geoffrey was asked in a press conference before he left whether he was
ashamed that the British Government had done so little to help the people
of Hongkong.
"No, not in the least ... The fact that I cannot accept every single
component of what the people of Hongkong would prescribe as ideal, does not
mean that we are not doing a very great deal," he replied.
He claimed his trip had been welcomed by many of the people he had met,
including some of those who were the most anxious about their future.
The visit and provided the plainest possible opportunity for people to
express their anxieties and proposals for the future, he said.
"I've no doubt had I not come at a time of such critical importance for
Hongkong, that the South China Morning Post would not have been diffident
in criticising me for failing to turn up," he said.
Dr Joseph Cheng, Dean of Arts and Humanities of the Open Learning
Institute, described Sir Geoffrey's visit as "disappointing" to Hongkong.
"We just wonder why he has come to Hongkong empty handed. Apparently he
lacked understanding of the community," Dr Cheng said.
"Sir Geoffrey pretended to come to Hongkong to listen to local opinion,
but it only made people realise that there is no point continuing the
dialogue with the British Government," he added.
Dr Cheng said Hongkong's lobbying efforts on right of abode would have to
reach out to the British business community, religious institutions,
academics and other interest groups, rather than being confirmed to the
British Government.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF Sun Jul 16 13:55:25 PDT 1989
Article 20123 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF
>From: SHENF@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Zhiyong Shen)
Newsgroups: osu.chinese,soc.culture.china
Subject: PLA Soldiers Taken Away Japanese Tourists who Went to TAMS
Message-ID: <2545@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 12:50:04 GMT
Sender: news@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu
Organization: Ohio State University
Lines: 11
Xref: polya soc.culture.china:20123
NPR just reported that three buses carrying Japanese tourists were searched
and taken away by Chinese soldiers in Beijing. Video- and still-cameras
were also confiscated by the soldiers. The destination of the buses is
still unknown. These tourist buses passed the Tiananmen Square before they
met PLA soldiers.
(Obviously CCP still have a lot of things to hide after cleaning the square
for so many days. This latest incident is a good way for CCP to tell the
world -- you can only believe our lies because we can hide the truth).
Zhiyong
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!husc6!endor!lyuu Sun Jul 16 13:55:51 PDT 1989
Article 20124 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!husc6!endor!lyuu
>From: lyuu@endor.harvard.edu (Yuh-dauh Lyuu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Xiong Jie == The Taiwanese Yuan Mu
Message-ID: <2158@husc6.harvard.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 13:46:52 GMT
References: <65044@yale-celray.yale.UUCP>
Sender: news@husc6.harvard.edu
Reply-To: lyuu@endor.UUCP (Yuh-dauh Lyuu)
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab Harvard, Cambridge, MA
Lines: 22
Scott Horne wrote in <65044@yale-celray.yale.UUCP>:
[...] However, as is apparent on SCC, Albert is not the
only one holding this view. Quite a few other netters
have proposed that the CPC be banned in ``new China''.
That's funny; I was sure I heard the word ``democracy''
just before those statements.
Democracy is certainly consistent with banning some political
parties. Democracy is about "free" competition for votes. If
the so-called "We the People" want CCP banned, out it goes
--- in theory. I believe Nazi is banned in West Germany today.
Another interesting case is West German court held the opinion,
in a case involving communists, that a political party that
intends to destroy democracy once it is in power could be
restricted (something like that).
Democracy is only a procedure and it can produce all kinds
of results.
Yuh-Dauh
From polya!shelby!rutgers!mailrus!cornell!uw-beaver!blake!oregon!howardl Sun Jul 16 13:56:21 PDT 1989
Article 20127 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!mailrus!cornell!uw-beaver!blake!oregon!howardl
>From: howardl@oregon.uoregon.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: J-1 Bill and Chinese Government
Message-ID: <4913@oregon.uoregon.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 89 16:40:53 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon
Lines: 78
Implications of Current Events
1. The House passed a bill for more sanctions. It is good for
two reasons:
a. If Bush has to veto it at a high political cost, there
is a much better chance for a political compromise in
the form of passing Nancy's bill, which will result in a
heavy blow on Li-regime and the so-called "One Center,
Two Basic Points" policy Deng is proposing.
b. It shows how eager the congress is to show some
sort of protest. This creats a positive situation for
passing the Pelosi Bill.
2. Wuer Kaishi is out. There is a good chance for us abroad to
form an organization. Such an organization will be a formidable
political force for the CCP to resist. The CCP influence abroad
could be reduced to almost zero. How can they carry on the "open
door and reform" that Deng desperately wants to continue with so
many rabels abroad?
3. I would not want to be in any of those killers' position to
answer the following question: How to treat the 1,800 guys
arrested after claiming to all the people in China that they are
counterrevolutionaries and should be punished? The execution of
27 has caused immense boycott all over the world. Not only that,
among all the arrested, there are so many students and
intellectuals, some holding Ph.D. ranks. It is a highly
sensitive issue that catches the world attention. Of around 40
most wanted guys, about 80% are still at large. Prof. Fang seems
to stay with the embassidor very safely despite of the fury of
Deng. Telling people that the government has won "decisively" is
like telling a political joke. The paradox is: Without
persecution, the people at home won't be conviced or intimidated;
while further persecution will definitely damage the already
weakened economy for more sanction is likely.
4. As many pointed out, sanction did work! More sanction is
possible at any time. For Deng, it is like walking on a rope.
Any inbalance can cause serious problems leading to the fall of
the empire.
5. 20% percent inflation as fairly predicted by economists, ten
million unemployed construction workers due to cutting in
infrastructure funding, $8 billion trade deficits, 40 billion
foreign debt that will result in around 13-billion-a-year
repayment soon, ... , just to say a few, one can see that the
seeds of multiple crisis are growing rapidly. Li and Jiang Zemin
are politically nothing but Deng's speakers. How can they
maintain their power after Deng's death, which is several years
away? Should Deng die today, a power struggle would bring both
of them to an end tomorrow. Both of them are not qualified to
pursue the profound chinese politics, especially Li, who sounds
more and more like an idiot.
6. Keeping up the good work on visa problem is important for:
a. This is the strongest and most realistic way to protest CCP
and put it in a paradoxic situation. This is something we can
work on here and now to save our arrested and wanted fellow
students in China. A clear message is sent to CCP, any more
suppression, you will suffer a big brain drain.
b. This Bill has already won a lot of support from the house.
It is very likely that we can find enough co-sponsors to get
around the subcommittee.
c. The Canadian government has started to carry out a special
immigration project aimed at helping the PRC nationals. This
will have a positive impact on the U.S. situation.
d. The bottomline is, if the bill does not pass, the work we
have done will create a good foundation for a likely compromise
such as, as long as the government does not admit the mistake and
insists on the cruel stance, PRC students can stay in the U.S.
for well-founded fear of persecution.
e. All Americans I know can understand and are supportive of the bill
for CCP has shown how cruel the government can be to dissidents.
From polya!shelby!agate!helios.ee.lbl.gov!wasatch!mailrus!cornell!batcomputer!zqli Sun Jul 16 13:57:32 PDT 1989
Article 20129 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!helios.ee.lbl.gov!wasatch!mailrus!cornell!batcomputer!zqli
>From: zqli@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Zhenqin Li)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: A Story of Khomeini (Re: A Suggestion for Efficiency)
Summary: democratic means to achieve democracy
Keywords: revolution
Message-ID: <8323@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 15:36:26 GMT
References: <4827@oregon.uoregon.edu> <MYfhUHy00XoZ41knsX@andrew.cmu.edu> <8311@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu> <2641@blake.acs.washington.edu>
Reply-To: zqli@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu (Zhenqin Li)
Organization: Cornell Theory Center, Cornell University, Ithaca NY
Lines: 44
In article <2641@blake.acs.washington.edu> mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) writes:
>Like the French Revolution's, Khomeini's "liberty, equality, fraternity"
>is a cruel joke.
>If the anti-CCP Chinese are admirers of Khomeini, then there is no
>hope for China.
I totally agree with Mark's opinions. It is incredible that
Khomeini's revolution has been refered to as one of the models
to change China. Having seen such (may I say) irresponsible
statements so many times, I sometimes become tired of getting
involved with such serious arguments. When I say "modern Iran
can no longer be ignored by the politicians and writers of
the world", perhaps it is too crude a joke. The bloody aspects of
Khomeini's regime are quite well-known today. Ironically, the early
"triumph" of the same "revolution", had been welcomed by many, including
quite a few Westerners, as a "democratic revolution".
Some netter complained that this newsgroup is s.c.CHINA, not
s.c.IRAN. Very true. But since Khomeini's revolution has been
brought into discussions on the ways to change China, I think
there are some lessons to be drawn. The "story" I introduced :-)
is actually adapted from a Chinese tale about the first emperor
of Ming Dynasty, Zhu Yuanzhang. The soup, so called "Zhen1zhu1
Fei3cui4 Tang1" (made plainly of a few grains of rice and a few
leaves of vegetables), which saved a poor peasant boy from
starvation, would cost the imperial chef's head after the same boy
become the emperor. The route for the oppressed to become oppressors
themselves, once they grasp the throne of power, is a pattern common
to almost every Chinese dynasty, from the Dynasty of Qin to that of
Deng. The tragedy is, that a history-conscious nation like China
could allow such patterns to recur again and again.
My point is not so much about the possibility of an outcome worst than
the CCP after a violent revolution, even though I am indeed opposed
to turning China into some adventurers' killing field. What I want to
say is, it is not enough to hear the beautiful words and promises of
democracy and freedoms. It is the *means* through which people try to
achieve democracy that is more important, more meaningful, and verifiable.
I couldn't help but to voice my distrust when someone claim he can
establish a democratic paradise through a Khomeini-type or Russian-style
revolution. As I see, the most difficult task is still the enlightenment
of the Chinese public through open intellectual communications and mass
educations. The recent events have made this task even more difficult,
but there is no short-cut to democracy.
From polya!shelby!decwrl!purdue!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!yale!cmcl2!linli Sun Jul 16 13:58:01 PDT 1989
Article 20132 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!purdue!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!yale!cmcl2!linli
>From: linli@cmcl2.NYU.EDU (xiaolin li)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Respond To Wuer Kaixi and Yan Jiaqi's Appeal.
Keywords: Chinese who loves peace, democracy, freedom, human right, unite!
Message-ID: <40780@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>
Date: 5 Jul 89 16:22:20 GMT
Organization: New York University
Lines: 6
I have read the joint statement by Mr. Wuer Kaixi and Mr. Yan Jiaqi.
I think that is an exccelent statement. I think Chinese all over the
world who love peace, democracy, freedom, and human right should unite.
A united front against the brutal, barbarous and bloody Deng-Li-Yang
regime should be formed.
From polya!shelby!decwrl!purdue!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!yale!mfci!rodman Sun Jul 16 13:59:27 PDT 1989
Article 20133 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!purdue!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!yale!mfci!rodman
>From: rodman@mfci.UUCP (Paul Rodman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: What we can do....
Message-ID: <932@m3.mfci.UUCP>
Date: 5 Jul 89 16:22:49 GMT
Sender: rodman@mfci.UUCP
Reply-To: rodman@mfci.UUCP (Paul Rodman)
Distribution: na
Organization: Multiflow Computer Inc., Branford Ct. 06405
Lines: 105
Hello to the net,
I've been reading soc.culture.china for a couple of weeks now and
can no longer refrain from posting my own experiences, thoughts and
opinions.
Due to a quirk of fate, I happened to be in Beijing from May 29 to
June 6, leaving 10 days earlier than expected. Before this trip my
knowledge of China was almost nil. I had read several books on China
before my trip, and have read more after my return.
I had the chance to talk to many students in Beijing, and make friends
with several of them that spoke english. ( It helped that I was with a
Chinese-American person ... He translated many of the stories we heard
from T square so I could follow...) I am now a
"Sino-phile" forever.
My feelings about the events in China are in turmoil even now. On
June 4th, I was extremly angry. Probably angry enough to kill.
But, emotions should only be what motivates action, _thought_
should determine action. I do not belive violence is the answer. I do
not belive that hanging anyone is an answer.
The vehement calls for hanging Li-Peng, etc. reminded me of something
that bothered me terribly after reading about the Cultural Revolution:
There seems to be a tendency in all humanity, and especially in China,
to try to affix blame to a small group of people for 100,000
crimes. In the case of the Cultural Revolution, the Gang of Four
magically filled the bill. Today it is the Deng-Li-Yang "gang of
three", or whatever.
What nonsense. Yes, these people are terrible people and should be
brought to justice. But these people do what they do with the support
of millions. Stomping down the door of the "new forbidden city" and
hanging them does nothing. Even a trivial reading of Chinese history
shows that this mindless flip-flop back and forth from one ruler to
another has been going on for centuries, to no avail.
This cycle has got to be stopped, and the goal of these efforts
are a PROCESS, not just the ousting of a particular group of people.
The students, with their courage, have started a break in the endless cycle.
I do not want to see them start to belive that "the end justifies the
means", and start on yet another cycle of violence. It's easy to get
deflected on this cycle of escalating violence....but don't do it. Wanting
to kill the soldiers that fired the bullets, or drove the tanks, and
to think of them as a part of their machines and therefore "ok" to kill
is _wrong_.
The second thing that bothered me about the situation in China is the
problem of public support. One of the most amazing things about the
recent events was the large show of support from the people. But,
disheartening were the even larger number of people that continued
with business as usual. The lack of free-speech and printed matter,
generally tough life [ look out for yourself and your family, period ]
and a history of "eating bitter" rather than being motivated to fight
back make is very difficult to imagine a _quick_ path to true democracy.
So what can _I_ do to help the Chinese people? This question has been
eating at me endlessly since I returned. Two ideas have occured to me:
1) More $$$ for Chinese students.
More than anything else, the exposure to Western free-speech and
ideas has brought about the desire for change. We should
be _spending money_ to help as many Chinese students afford to go
to school outside China as the CCP will allow.
What better way to help the cause of democracy in China? We
spend money helping "freedom fighters" when this is 1000 times as
effective at bringing freedom to 100 times as many people. In
addition, the knowledge these students gain will help raise the
standard of living in China. We don't need to do anything other
than let these students live outside China to show them that other
ways of living are possible.
This idea seems a good one, but isn't personal enough for me, so we
come to the second idea....
2) 1 Week TAM square sit-in, June 3rd, 1990.
This is how _we non-Chinese_ can demonstrate our support to all
those that died one year before. I would like to see as many non-chinese
people from as many different countries as possible converge on Tsquare
on this day. I'd like to see thousands of black-armbanded tourists
converge on all sides of the square on that day.
Our purpose would be to show that the people of the world morn for
those that died one year before. And that we belive
that all people are born with the right to speak their own minds,
without any fear of retribution. Violence is never an answer.
There are logistics problems with this idea that I belive are
soluble, assuming the country is still open for tourism in the
weeks before. Even if the square is closed in anticipation of some
such event, appropriate alternative locations are many.
What do you think of this idea? Will _you_ go?
Power comes from ideas, not guns.
- Paul K. Rodman
From polya!shelby!decwrl!purdue!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!yale!Horne-Scott Sun Jul 16 14:00:09 PDT 1989
Article 20134 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!purdue!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!yale!Horne-Scott
>From: Horne-Scott@cs.yale.edu (Scott Horne)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: How to make fake IDs?
Message-ID: <65427@yale-celray.yale.UUCP>
Date: 5 Jul 89 16:29:00 GMT
References: <8907041847.AA11314@en.ecn.purdue.edu> <6753@sdcsvax.UCSD.Edu>
Sender: root@yale.UUCP
Reply-To: Horne-Scott@cs.yale.edu (Scott Horne)
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept, New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Lines: 51
In article <6753@sdcsvax.UCSD.Edu>, liu@beowulf (Liu) writes:
> In article <8907041847.AA11314@en.ecn.purdue.edu> jzhang@EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU (Ji Zhang) writes:
> >Freedom of expression is based on the absence of fear when making it.
> >This is not the case even in SCC. The fear on the CCP is real:
> [lines deleted]
> >Fortunately, some people learned to
> >use fake IDs in the postings. Many people, however, stopped postings.
>
> It is not good idea to teach fake posting in public,
> including this SCC, because there are some very irresponsible people
> who can drag the public into very ugly world.
I quite agree. Several SCCers, ranging from Ning Wang to me, have been the
victims of fake postings. Many (most?) fake posters are irresponsible and
vicious.
However, note that there have been several postings of information about faking
articles before. Some have even posted programs to do this conveniently.
I know several ways to fake articles, but I never have and never will release
or use the information.
> >To encourage more postings, more information exchanges, we should
> >find a way to protect our identities.
> >
> You may want to use command "chfn" to change the finger
> entry which may protect you somehow.
> See "man chfn" for details.
That doesn't really change your identity; it just changes the name that shows
up. Vicious, odious people like the ones who attacked poor Emy Tan recently
can still dig up your identity if you say something with which they disagree.
> >Suggestions:
> >2). Set up a common account in each university so that people who
> > want to post articles can do it through that account.
>
> Talk to your system manager for help.
Few universities would be willing to do so. Besides, that would open up the
net to flames without accountability. There is already far too much
irresponsibility from some netters; let's not make it easier for people who
enjoy throwing around black paint.
--Scott
Scott Horne Hacker-in-Chief, Yale CS Dept Facility
horne@cs.Yale.edu ...!{harvard,cmcl2,decvax}!yale!horne
Home: 203 789-0877 SnailMail: Box 7196 Yale Station, New Haven, CT 06520
Work: 203 432-6428 Summer residence: 175 Dwight St, New Haven, CT
Dare I speak for the amorphous gallimaufry of intellectual thought called Yale?
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ccuab1.uab.es!IUTS0 Sun Jul 16 14:00:25 PDT 1989
Article 20136 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ccuab1.uab.es!IUTS0
>From: IUTS0@ccuab1.uab.es
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Elegy for the Dead by Gu Cheng & Yang Lian
Message-ID: <8907051729.AA03433@jade.berkeley.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 18:54:00 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 104
The following is a translation of the poem which Gu Cheng and Yang Lian
have written in memory of the TAM dead. John Minford sent it from New
Zealand, where both poets are currently located.
ELEGY FOR THE DEAD
You're dead now; not long ago, out there in the square, the sky
was blue, your mother was there with you, calling to you in her
loud voice; you were already taller than me, and gazed up at the
kites fluttering in the spring breeze.
You're dead now; I remember, not long ago, we said, let's go to
the square and talk, let's go with all the others to the little
park by the entrance to the underground.
Not long ago, we shared a bowl of soup and noodles, and ate it
slowly in the rain, under our umbrellas, torches in hand, as we
wove our way among the tents.
But now you are dead.
A sudden burst of light pinned you to the stone slabs of the
square; your legs were crushed; you crawled, you cried out,
flattened to pulp by the steel treads.
We will never forget the moment they opened fire, and the look of
terror in your eyes. Your hands that had been clapping, now
clutched your chest to stanch the gushing blood. You sat in rows
upon the ground, and in rows they mowed you down.
As the armoured personnel carriers rolled across you, your brains
were splattered on the square.
Bullets pursued you, ambulances searched you out; helicopters
and flame-throwers hunted you down; your charred bodies exploded
in the heat, as the wounded were incinerated along with the dead.
You are dead; we can never forget; you were only a little younger
than us; you held your head just a little higher; you could laugh
like children. We will never forget the way they forced you up
against a wall, and shot you just like that.
You stood by the side of the road, watching the smoking gun
barrels; the look in your eyes was a "crime".
You could no longer remain silent, you cried "Don't shoot!"; your
words were a "crime".
You walked out of your front door, to save a dying man;
your very life was a "crime".
As the guns thundered on, your bodies were pounded into lumps of
blood and flesh.
You died; the square died with you; but the shouting and the shooting
of the butchesr continues. They killed you, and now they will
kill your classmates, your brothers, your sisters, your fathers
and mothers; they will even shoot down the old men and women as
they rush to save you, along the streets, in the universities,
and at the doors of the laboratories. They will kill everyone who
knew you, who loved you. They want to eradicate all memory of
you, and spatter your dead bodies with their putrid lies. They
are maggots feasting on the dead.
They have proclaimed a great victory. They hope that by burning
your bodies, and washing away your blood they will be rid of you
forever; that your voice will never be heard again; that you will
never be able to accuse them of the monstrous crimes they have
committed. You are dead, and now they can live out their wicked
lives in peace. To them, human life is something expendable,
something that can be annihilated by gunfire. They think that
your deaths will shelter their wicked lives.
We live, we stand here before you now; and they will kill us too.
What they do not know, is that we too have died, died in
Tian'anmen Square at that moment when the guns opened fire; died
there, in our own homeland. We offer up our hearts to you, the
dead, that you may live again within us. With hands raised we
swear to fulfil your mission.
Gu Cheng
Yang Lian
Night of 5 June, 1989
Auckland, New Zealand
I have the Chinese text, and will send it by FAX to anyone who wants
to read the original poem. Please request it by e-mail directly to
me. There are many things to do and I don't have time to wade through
personal squabbles that clutter up networks.
Sean Golden, Director
Chinese Studies
Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona
E-08193 Bellaterra
Barcelona
Spain
tel: 34-3-5812071
FAX: 34-3-5812004
e-mail: iuts0@ebccuab1.bitnet or iuts0@ccuab1.uab.es
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!DB2.CC.ROCHESTER.EDU!XZOU Sun Jul 16 14:01:02 PDT 1989
Article 20139 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!DB2.CC.ROCHESTER.EDU!XZOU
>From: XZOU@DB2.CC.ROCHESTER.EDU
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: tell your american students
Message-ID: <8907051754.AA28932@rutgers.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 18:51:00 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 22
I am posting this for the Graduate Alliance at University of Rochester
As every reader in scc noticed that there will be a 'National Resolution Press
Conference and National Day China Awareness Day' on July 20th, not many
universitites respond to this. The reason is we Chinese students haven't told
our american collegues about this. So please pass this news to the appropriate
student leadership in your university, and ask them to reply either to the
organizer or to the Graduate Alliance at U of R which is willing to help spread
it all around US.
Address of the organizer
University of Florida Student Government
c/o Juan Vitali
305 J.W.Reitz Union
Gainesville, Florida 32611
(904)392-1665
Address of Graduate Alliance
Coutter Sutter
63 Nicholson
Rochester, NY14620
(716)244-2022
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!McMaster.CA!LINHONG Sun Jul 16 14:02:05 PDT 1989
Article 20141 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!McMaster.CA!LINHONG
>From: LINHONG@McMaster.CA
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: thinking
Message-ID: <8907051822.AA04302@jade.berkeley.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 18:22:00 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 118
I am strongly recommend all of us to read this article.
The blood has already spreaded. The situation is still bad at home.
We need to calm to think. We are young, we need to learn, we need to
listen. I talked to several senior visiting scholars who are just
from China recently, it is a long story to tell you. In short, they
believe it would be the darkness at home for a long time. For short
term they hope no matter what we are doing the effect should be not
let the goverment close the door to the West society. For long term
they hope us growing up, the future is our young generation's.
The massacre is just like Peking earthquake, after getting big shock,
our country needs to be recovered.
I wish our student leaders can read the article carefully, when we
take the next step we need to think things through.
"CHINA IS NOT DISNEYLAND'
THE COMMUNISTS HAVE KILLED MILLIIONS OVER THE YEARS, WRITES RICHARD
NIXON, BUT BREAKING RELATIONS NOW WOULD STOP REFORM IN ITS TRACTS
Diplomatic view: DARKNESS AHEAD, BUT CHANGE ON THE WAY
(THE GLOBE AND MAIL, MONDAY, JUNE 26,1989)
Earl drake, Canada's ambassador to China, testifying before a parlia-
mentary committeee in Qttawa last week:
Then (the student protestors)decided- and here I think they made a
fatal error- to carry on until the (Soviet leader Midhail) Gorbachev
visit. They had received a lot of support, a lot of interest up until
then, and they had demonstrated perfectly peacefully. The goverment had
not tried to move them out, had not used clubs or tear gas or anything,
and so they thought, well, we have gotten away with it so far, maybe the
govermetn is listening.....
JUST WHAT WAS SAID
-------------------------
So it was a situation that had become out of hand; the students got
carried away by their success. The government dithered, they frankly did
not know what to do. It had been a response that they had not anticipa-
ted. Moreover, government were worried about how to handle this, because
the stuents, many of them, were the sons and daughters and grandchildren
of the leaders themselves. They did not want to go in and bang the heads
of their own children........
I think the fatal mistake came when(the demonstrators) did two things.
They carried on that long; they publicly humiliated Deng Xiaoping in
front of the world. This was one of the most important visits of his
life, to have a reconceleation with the Soviet Union in front of the
world. They publicly humiliated him.He could not carry out the program
for his guest because of the students. And the students made another
mistake. They began openly to form their own student union.... and some
of the workers began to say, that is a good idea. We will also have our
own union, instead of the formal Communist one.
It is reported that (supreme leader)Deng Xiao ping then called the
leaders together and said, we have to stop this, this has gone too far.
I have been humiliated and we are seeing the beginning of the Polish
syndrome, the forming of independent groups of worders and students.
The regime is threatedned if this begins. We will have to take very
strong action.......
There was then a kind of strange period in which martial law was
declared and nothing much happened. It looked as if it was a joke. But
it was not a joke. I think it tood time to marshal the armies to be sure
that most of the party was on side, and I believe to prepare a propa-
ganda line they could present to the world after they took strong action..
Contrary to what some of the Western press reproted, these students
were not asking for parliamentary democracy and capitalism; nt at all.
What they were saying is we want a reform of the Communist Party...
We are seeing it being reformed in Eastern Europe; we want something
like that. We are seeing economic reform, we also want political reform.
Specifically, what they asked for was freedom of information, freedom
of the press.
The knew that the official press was lying to them... They knew that
everyone in Beijing knew that the government were lying, so they said
we want freedon of the press. We want free information. They said we
want freedon of speech. We want the right to be able to have meetings
and to voice criticisms and to have some dialogue with the goverment,
and we want an end to corruption.
They have blatant corruption; even the Communist Party admitted there
was corruption, and they want an end to corruption.
And then some of them went further and said the old men must go; we
want a change in generations. We want to get rid of the old men who
(have) ruled us for so long. They have done things for China but their
day is past.....The government...decided to take very stern measures...
Some of them at least believed in what they called the "black hand
theory." That is, more than just the students were involved. How could
a group of students sustain this so long? How could they be so knowled-
geable about what was happening? How could thay have such sophisticated
communications?.... some people thought the students were supported by
their prefessors-which I think is quite true-and by a reform group
within the government...probably informing them about what the govern-
ment was doing.
They also believed that there was outside support for it from overseas
Chinese groups, significant support in terms of money and information
coming from Hong Kong and North America. So this gave a conspiracy theory
to it, and the government believed....there really was a plot to overthrow
the Communist system......
I do not think anybody intended to kill that many people, and nobody
knows to this day how many were killed because of the ruthless technique
they used, because they did not just shoot people, but tanks made a point
of rolling over bodies and smashing them, and then troops would come and
burn them with flame throwers. So there is not a very good body count,
but there were a lot...
It is especially poignant that this tragedy happened because China
seemed to be on the march toward economic progress and, for a few heady
weeks, toward modest labor reform as well.
In my view, the old men of the Long March generation have turned back
the clock on political reform, and China is in for a very dark period,
but there is light ahead. The old men who made this decision are not
immortal, although some of them seem to believe they are.
Many in the next generation want to have a change, they have ideas on
how to change it, and they are now quite. They are now...biding their
time, but a tremendous number of able people want China to change.
Moreover, the current leaders, although they oppose political reform,
want economic reform and they want to open this to the West. They want
it because they believe they need it for China to make economic progress.
I believe that if you open the door to the West to bring in technology,
you also let in Western ideas.
If you let in science, you let in an approach to truth. You can not
be a scientist without testing theories against facts, without being
dedicated to disseminating information-and that idea will spread.
It has already begun to spread in China and it cannot be stopped.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU!jzhang Sun Jul 16 14:02:25 PDT 1989
Article 20144 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU!jzhang
>From: jzhang@EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU (Ji Zhang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: How to fake IDs?
Message-ID: <8907051853.AA21291@en.ecn.purdue.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 18:53:29 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 15
In <65427@yale-celray.yale.UUCP> Scott-Horne writes:
...
Some usual trash delete.
...
The purpose of faking ID is to protect ourselves from CCP.
Can you not see the point???? Can you ever make something suggestive???
In fact, it is not worth the effort to fake ID in order to snare
Scott Horne.
It is not worth anything even to read his headings.
IT'S JUST NOT WORTH IT!
Can someone tell me how to put Scott Horne into my kill file?
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!WSUVM1.BITNET!FAN Sun Jul 16 14:02:50 PDT 1989
Article 20146 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!WSUVM1.BITNET!FAN
>From: FAN@WSUVM1.BITNET
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: A Suggestion to J-1 Guys
Message-ID: <Added.kYgFqw600Ui3A_P05L@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 19:13:07 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 7
X-Unparsable-Date: Tue, 04 Jul 89 13:02:48 PLT
In a recent People's Daily, there is a paper called "Cut off the Black
Hands of Liu Xiaobo". I suggeste that someone read it, translate it and
then send the translation to every senator and congressperson to let them
know how bad Chinese people from U.S. are going to be treated by the
Chinese government. To save some time, the English translation can be only
some basic iders of the original paper.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!WSUVM1.BITNET!FAN Sun Jul 16 14:03:00 PDT 1989
Article 20147 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!WSUVM1.BITNET!FAN
>From: FAN@WSUVM1.BITNET
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: A Suggestion About J-1's Two Year Waiver
Message-ID: <Added.oYgFwga00Ui3A_a04h@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 19:15:30 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 8
X-Unparsable-Date: Tue, 04 Jul 89 13:31:51 PLT
In a recent People's Daily, there is a paper called "Cut off the Black
Hands of Liu Xiaobo". I suggeste that someone read it, translate it and
then send the translation to every senator and congressperson to let them
know how bad Chinese people from U.S. are going to be treated by the
Chinese government. To save some time, the English translation can be only
some basic iders of the original paper.
THE PAPER SHOULD BE ON THE PEOPLE'S DAILY OF LAST WEEK.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ccuab1.uab.es!IUTS0 Sun Jul 16 14:03:12 PDT 1989
Article 20148 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ccuab1.uab.es!IUTS0
>From: IUTS0@ccuab1.uab.es
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Speaker for International Peace Conference in Spain
Message-ID: <Added.4YgYCk200Ui3MEF04m@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 19:06:00 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 14
aaUrgent Request!!
This weekend, 7-8-9 July, there is a very important International Peace
Conference being held in the city of Vitoria in the Basque Country in
Spain. The organisers would very much like to have a student leader from
TAM, or a survivor of TAM, who could come to the conference as a guest
speaker. The conference organisers will arrange for visas and pay all
expenses, but the conference starts in two days, so everything must be done
immediately. Reports are that Wu'er Kaixi and others are in Paris right
now. If anybody has any information about this or can help to locate a
speaker for the Peace Conference, please let me know immediately by personal
e-mail: iuts0@ebccuab1.bitnet or iuts0@ccuab1.uab.es.
Sean Golden, Director, Chinese Studies, Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!OUACCVMB.BITNET!ECE227 Sun Jul 16 14:03:39 PDT 1989
Article 20149 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!OUACCVMB.BITNET!ECE227
>From: ECE227@OUACCVMB.BITNET
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Declaration of Independence
Message-ID: <8907051947.AA21022@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 5 Jul 89 19:44:57 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 57
To our comrades in the battle against tyranny,
Today is the Fourth of July, the birthday of America. It was on this
historical date in 1776 that the Declaration of Independence was adopted
by the Continental Congress in Philadelphia, which marked the begining of
a new era in human history that leads to the leader of democracy in the
world, the United States of America, as we know it today.
The Declaration of Independence is a very inspiring document to anyone
who believes in liberty, whatever his national origin, religion, color,
race, age or sex. It is even more so, I believe, to the Chinese who are
now engaged in the heroic struggle against the most atrocious regime in
human history.
On this day, I found it a rewarding experience to review this great
document, the Declaration of Independence. Every reading of it strengthens
my conviction and my committment to the struggle for liberty.
Don't let any people tell you that the manifest in such document is alien
to Chinese culture, (where did communism come from?) for the human spirit
of liberty transcends nationality, state boundary, social group, race, space
and time, and anything one can name. To pursue liberty at any cost, even
life, has been demonstrated innumerable times throughout history.
Following is an excerpt from the Declaration of Independence (my favorite
part). Let it be remembered by hearts. It is my hope that studying this
great document together will bring us closer in our pursuit of liberty and
make us more conscious of the greatness and importance of what we are
doing.
***********************************************************************
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed bt their creator with certain unalienable rights, that
among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness--that to secure
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
these rights, government are instituted among men, deriving their just power
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
from the consent of the governed, that whenever any form of government becomes
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
principles, and orgnizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem
most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will
dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light
and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that
mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to
right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
provide new guards for their future security.
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!ucsfcgl!cca.ucsf.edu!ucsfmis!peterli Sun Jul 16 14:07:55 PDT 1989
Article 20172 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!ucsfcgl!cca.ucsf.edu!ucsfmis!peterli
>From: peterli@ucsfmis (Peter Li)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: UNIX accounts available...
Message-ID: <2188@ucsfcca.ucsf.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 23:22:58 GMT
Sender: news@cca.ucsf.edu
Reply-To: peterli@mis.ucsf.edu (Peter Li)
Distribution: usa
Organization: UCSF Medical Information Sciences
Lines: 48
This is a forwarded message. Please reply to Netcom directly.
I have no affiliation with Netcom and have no experience with
their services, reliability, sponsors, etc..
Peter Li
---------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: NetCom Services
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 89 19:27:38 PDT
>From: netcom!bobr@apple.UUCP (Bob Rieger)
Status: R
Could you please post the following message for your users to see either in
a news message or on a bulletin board. Thanks.
Bob Rieger
NetCom Services
bobr@netcom
[=============================== CUT HERE ===================================]
P U B L I C A C C E S S U N I X
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
NetCom Services, the Bay area's Public Access Unix System, is now
offering personal accounts for a very low fixed mothly fee. Many people
have accounts at work or at universities, however, both universities
and businesses alike are restricting and monitoring personal usage of
computer resources. A personal account will allow you a great deal of
freedom and privacy. Freedom to post news articles without putting
your company in political cross fire or compromising your position.
More and more people are depending upon E-mail for communications and
need a home base to maintain personal information, resumes, code, and
personal correspondence. You can use the account once a month or one
hundred times a month and you will be billed for the same minimal fee.
All users have their choice of C shell, Korn shell, or the Bourne shell.
The system has a full news feed of all news groups and maintains 14+ days
of all articles. All users have access to E-mail and uucp at no additional
charge. Other System V features and more are all available including a
full C compiler (and cross compiler for MS-Dos), vi, EMACS, NROFF,
kermit, Z-modem, and xmodem. The system is available for 24 hour access
and supports baud ranges from 1200 to 9600.
Personal accounts are based on a fixed fee of $10.00 per month, and
a one time registration fee of $10.00. There has not been any disk usage
limits or charges imposed to date. Registration can be completed via
data line (408) 997-9175 (login as guest no password).
[============================ CUT HERE =====================================]
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF Sun Jul 16 14:08:21 PDT 1989
Article 20174 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF
>From: SHENF@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Zhiyong Shen)
Newsgroups: osu.chinese,soc.culture.china
Subject: Beijing Butchers' Accomplice Wants to Make a Fortune
Message-ID: <2552@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 23:19:11 GMT
Sender: news@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu
Organization: Ohio State University
Lines: 44
Xref: polya soc.culture.china:20174
People's Daily again used freedom in the US to help CCP to kill freedom
in China. On June 30, PD published CCP-style lies made by Weng Shaoqiu in
San Franscisco.
Before I start to call this person Butchers' accomplice, I know some
people will cry "freedom of speech" and defend him. In fact, some even
think that sending reports to Deng Xiaoping accusing Chinese students is
freedom of speech.
Yes, these shameless people are nothing but Butchers' accomplices. They
are abusing freedom of speech granted by the US constitution to plunge their
murderous knives into our parents, brothers and sisters who are already
suffering. If their unconscionable action could be explained away by using
an argument valid only in a free society, Lady Liberty would shed tears.
Their views may be within the definition of freedom of speech in this country.
But in China official lies are important weapons used by the regime for
enslaving, butchering, jailing and persecuting our brothers and sisters.
Those who add their lies to People's Daily, mouthpiece of CCP, could only
be called a bunch of hardcore criminals. If a person wants to ban fire, a
free society will not agree. If he argues that arsonists should have no
rights to use fire to destroy and to murder, he is standing up for justice.
By the same token, those who want to express their obnoxious views or lies
in a free society can do so because others also have freedom to express
different views and to expose their lies. Consequently their views will
seldom threat other people's freedom or lives.
It is completely different in China. Those who join the lying campaigns of
the regime are NOT exercising their freedom of speech. They are helping
those butchers and building their fortunes by sucking blood out of our people.
If their lies could be called freedom of speech, then China would have been
full of freedom now because butchers are free to kill, free to lie, free to
repress and free to persecute.
Freedom can only exist if everyone in a society is free. It cannot exist
in today's People's Daily or Beijing. Those who think otherwise are NO
believers of freedom. Those who want to confuse us may be fed by their CCP
butcher-friends.
The US law may not punish these accomplices, but the Chinese people will
remember their names and bring them to justice when our V-Day comes.
Zhiyong
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF Sun Jul 16 14:08:40 PDT 1989
Article 20175 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF
>From: SHENF@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Zhiyong Shen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: should we support Tibet Independence?
Message-ID: <2553@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 23:26:51 GMT
References: <4827@oregon.uoregon.edu> <MYfhUHy00XoZ41knsX@andrew.cmu.edu> <8311@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu> <2641@blake.acs.washingt <113774@sun.Eng.Sun.COM>
Sender: news@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu
Organization: Ohio State University
Lines: 9
Steven, I am terribly sorry to point out your lack of knowledge. The PRC
flag have five stars -- the big one in the center is CCP (Chinese Cheating
and killing Party). The four smaller ones represent slaves of CCP (workers,
peasants, bourgeois, and petit bourgeois).
Please forgive my bluntness, you are not responsible for your mistake because
obviously you were not educated by CCP.
Zhiyong
From polya!shelby!rutgers!att!watmath!watdragon!violet!rzhu Sun Jul 16 14:09:12 PDT 1989
Article 20176 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!att!watmath!watdragon!violet!rzhu
>From: rzhu@violet.waterloo.edu (Rupert Zhu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: The Woman Who Betrayed Her Brother Win Praise But ....
Message-ID: <14891@watdragon.waterloo.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 14:47:01 GMT
Sender: daemon@watdragon.waterloo.edu
Lines: 39
Woman who Denounced Brother Wins Praise
=======================================
(Quoted from The Gardian)
Tuesday June 27, 1989
James Pringle in Beijing
========================
A woman who betrayed her brother to Chinese security agents has been
taken into protective custody in Xian. China's ancient capital, Chinese sources
said yesterday in Beijing.
The woman denounced her brother, Zhou Fengsuo, aged 22, who had been
involved in student-led demonstrations in Beijing, after he sought refuge with
other brother in Xian. The tightly-controlled Chinese media have praised her
action as a fine example of socialist morality and patriotism.
But since then, sources say she has been besieged with telephone
callers passing on messages like: " You have sold your brother and made good
fortune for yourself."
"She had a kind of nervous breakdown and is now in custody for her own
safety," said one well-informed Chinese source. Her brother is also in the
custody of the Public Security Bureau, but is likely to be receiving quite
different treatment.
By yesterday more than 2,400 people had been arrested in the sweeping
crackdown that followed the smashing of the pro-democracy demonstration in
Tiananmen Square on June 4.
============================================================================
Information Exchange
--------------------- rzhu@violet.uwaterloo.ca (in Canada)
Rupert Zhu (in Canada) rzhu@violet.waterloo.edu (Elsewhere)
'
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!batserver.cs.uq.oz.AU!anthony Sun Jul 16 14:10:23 PDT 1989
Article 20182 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!batserver.cs.uq.oz.AU!anthony
>From: anthony@batserver.cs.uq.oz.AU (Anthony Lee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Videoconferencing (was Some interesting technology)
Message-ID: <8907060044.446@munnari.oz.au>
Date: 6 Jul 89 15:43:44 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 9
Could someone please email to me to tell me whether there had been any definite
decision to hold a Videoconference summit on the 19th, 20th and the 21st.
I notice that Australia was not mentioned, considering we have 15,000
Chinese nationals here I think we ought to have a representative there.
I think OTC(Australia's Main Carrier to overseas) can arrange to have
videoconference with Cable and Wireless in Hong Kong.
cheers Anthony
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!GATECH.EDU!dsadmcs%prism Sun Jul 16 14:11:17 PDT 1989
Article 20186 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!GATECH.EDU!dsadmcs%prism
>From: dsadmcs%prism@GATECH.EDU
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: News from Georgia Tech (1)
Message-ID: <8907060100.AA05439@prism>
Date: 6 Jul 89 01:00:47 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 30
(1) Some students at GA TECH have started a discussion group since June 9,1989.
This group is aimed at theorectical and practical analysis of the current
situation and the future about our motherland, information collection and
exchange.
(2) Four Seminars have been held. Letters to U.S. Congressmen and Senators to
encourge them to take further actions against the current Chinese facisist
regime and to support bills for protecting Chinese students in the states
were drafted and sent out. On June 29, an open letter to Jiang Zemin was
also made publisized.
(3) Three subcommittees were established on July 2:
-- Information subcommittee which is in charge of information exchange
in and out of Georgia Tech.
-- Publication subcommittee which will publish a bi-weekly journal
"Communications on Democracy in China -- A Publication of Chinese
Students in Atlanta Area" (in Chinese).
-- Visa subcommittee which will coordinate with other schools to lobby
for more support from U.S. government, Senate and House, and American
public.
(4) We would like to receive more information from other schools. Please
e-mail to the folloing address:
dsadmcs@prism.gatech.edu
or send to : Chinese Friendship Association
Program Area, Student Center
Georgia Institute of Technology
Atlanta, GA 30332
From polya!shelby!decwrl!purdue!gatech!gitpyr!cheung Sun Jul 16 14:11:56 PDT 1989
Article 20188 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!purdue!gatech!gitpyr!cheung
>From: cheung@pyr.gatech.EDU (S. Y. Cheung)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Beijing Butchers' Accomplice Wants to Make a Fortune
Summary: You are responsible for what you say
Message-ID: <8681@pyr.gatech.EDU>
Date: 6 Jul 89 00:53:13 GMT
References: <2552@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
Lines: 23
SHENF@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Zhiyong Shen) writes:
> They
> are abusing freedom of speech granted by the US constitution to plunge their
> murderous knives into our parents, brothers and sisters who are already
> suffering.
>
> Their views may be within the definition of freedom of speech in this
> country.
Freedom of speech, in fact, freedom of anything, does not come
without responsibility. Freedom of choice *implies* you are responsible
of your action. If you find these men in anyway do you bodily or mentally
harm, you should report them to the FBI. They stand responsible for
their action. Freedom of speech do not imply immunity from saying
anything you want. You can't slander, insult or otherwise inflict
mental cruelty with deliberation with immunity. You are allowed to
express you opinion, but you are responsible for what you say. You
may even be prosecuted for what you say if it is unfounded (slander).
--
Shun Yan Cheung
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!cheung
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!ucdavis!iris!matloff Sun Jul 16 14:12:48 PDT 1989
Article 20191 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!ucdavis!iris!matloff
>From: matloff@iris.ucdavis.edu (Norm Matloff)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Ted Koppel's TAM Report
Message-ID: <4836@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>
Date: 6 Jul 89 01:40:32 GMT
References: <12433@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <1397@uceng.UC.EDU>
Sender: uucp@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu
Reply-To: matloff@iris.ucdavis.edu (Norm Matloff)
Distribution: na
Organization: U.C. Davis - Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
Lines: 35
In article <1397@uceng.UC.EDU> ysu@uceng.UC.EDU (yang su) writes:
>In article <12433@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>, zam@athena.mit.edu (NorAazizam Bin MohdAasif) writes:
*> According to the Koppel's report, TAM the untold story, the students
*> chose to stay in the square eventhough the majority felt that it was
*> time to abandon their occupation of the square for the time being.
*> Well, the rest is history but I do wonder, if the students were really
*> looking for democracy, how come they didn't follow the concepts that
*> they were trying to promote?
The Koppel report quoted a student who was (as I recall) quoting Chai Ling.
He said that the students had agreed beforehand that after the vote, they
would implement the wishes of the **minority**, not the majority. [Koppel
referred to this as "a bizarre twist on the theme of democracy," or
something like that.] Unfortunately the report did not give the
rationale for this policy.
> Yes, the student leaders at the TAM square finally decided to
>retreat from the square and student representatives were sent to negotiate
>with the army so that thay could leave safely. But BEFORE the decision
>could be spread to the students in the square (which has the size to hold
>over one million people), the electricity had been cut and student controlled
>loudspeakers distroyed, then begun the massacre!!!
According to the Koppel report, the army group which had made the agreement
did honor that agreement. However, the report said that another army group,
which was unaware of the agreement, attacked the students as they were
leaving the square.
Both of these pieces of information were "new", at least to me. I don't
know whether they are accurate or not, but for those in s.c.c. who felt
that there was "nothing new" in the report, it does seem that there in
fact WAS some new stuff.
Norm
From polya!shelby!rutgers!cmcl2!linli Sun Jul 16 14:13:57 PDT 1989
Article 20198 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!cmcl2!linli
>From: linli@cmcl2.NYU.EDU (xiaolin li)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Excercise Your Power In Compus Against Deng-Li-Yang Regime.
Keywords: Let them feel painful.
Message-ID: <40786@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>
Date: 6 Jul 89 01:58:13 GMT
Organization: New York University
Lines: 31
It is very likely that the Deng-Li-Yang controlled ambassy and consulates
will try to make control over Chinese students by entering American
compuses to make propaganda and to put pressure on students by persuading
American university administrators. Since the Deng-Li-Yang regime has
showed their face as an barbarous anti-people regime and has excercised
their power over people by brutally slaughtering unarmed civillians, we
have our full right to show and excercise our power in American compuses
against this regime.
In the past, the control of the Chinese government over Chinese student
is made largely by the cooperation and support of Chinese students and
faculties in American compuses. The statue of the government officials
of consulates is dependent on the influence of the Chinese students and
faculties in American compuses. I believe the non-coorperation and
distruction of such statues will quickly deminish their ability in
controlling and even entering the American compuses.
Furthermore, some of our students have entered from postdoc to
even full professor rank. The academic influence of our people is
especially strong in matters about China. In one word, we now have
power which we can excercise too. We can treat them very cooly
whenever they enter the compuses. We can persuade our colleagues
and administrators to turn them down. We can creat them troubles
to frustrate them. Remember in compuses, we the host and they are
the guest. If the host is showing anger, the guest has to go home.
It sounds very cold to them as they are the countrymen of ours.
But they are representing this brutal regime and the regime are killing
people. What can we do? We have to let them see even the smallest
power of people. Unlike the regime, our power is non-violent.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!yale!jiang Sun Jul 16 14:14:25 PDT 1989
Article 20200 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!yale!jiang
>From: jiang@venus.ycc.yale.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: A request for suggestions
Message-ID: <65528@yale-celray.yale.UUCP>
Date: 6 Jul 89 02:33:17 GMT
Sender: root@yale.UUCP
Distribution: usa
Organization: Yale Computer Center, New Haven, Connecticut, USA
Lines: 10
Some of the Chinese students at Yale will meet with Congressman Bruce
Morrison (chairman of the House Immigration Sub-committee) tommorrow
afternoon (July 6), and I am soliciting suggestions on behalf of those
student representatives. The main topic of discussion with Congressman
Morrison will be the J-1 visa issue. We know exactly what we want, but
need more input with regard to the justification for our request. Your
suggestions would be greatly appreciated. In particular, we would welcome
input from Americans.
Jiang
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!unmvax!ncar!boulder!sunybcs!xiaofei Sun Jul 16 14:15:13 PDT 1989
Article 20206 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!unmvax!ncar!boulder!sunybcs!xiaofei
>From: xiaofei@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Xiaofei Wang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Who Co-sponsored Nancy Pelosi's Bill?
Message-ID: <7604@cs.Buffalo.EDU>
Date: 6 Jul 89 02:57:38 GMT
Sender: nobody@cs.Buffalo.EDU
Reply-To: xiaofei@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Xiaofei Wang)
Organization: SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science
Lines: 565
Hi, Folks--
I got the article below from SCC (thanks for the original
author) and did some updating work. However it is still incomplete.
As of 7/3/89, there were 58 co-sponsors according to a SCC article,
the list below has 55 co-sponsors. I hope some can constantly update
this list and post it on SCC. Thanks.
Here in New York, 24 out 34 House Representatives has co-sponsored
Nancy Pelosi's bill. I think the ten guys who have not signed the bill,
are determined not to sign and there seems little effect for people here
to write House Representatives in other states. I don't know what can folks
here do for the bill. Any ideas?
I heard reports on SCC that some House Representatives were not
aware of Nancy Pelosi's bill. Is this still true?
XiaoFei Wang From Buffalo, New York, The City Of Good Neighbors
``No One Can Come To Buffalo Without Falling In Love With This Place''
Here is the list--
Updated list of the co-signers of Nancy Pelosi's bill (HR2712).
Cosponsors are indicated by a *.
Fellows in Ohio, Michigan, Texas and Florida, push a little harder!
We need at least 217 cosigners to break the barrier of sub-committees.
========== List of Representatives ============
Address in Zip Code (Area Code 202)
ALABAMA (1/7) D.C.
Sonny Callahan 1232 LH 20515-0101 tel: 225-4931 fax: 225-0562
William L. Dickinson 2406 RH 20515-0102 tel: 225-2901
Glen Browder 1630 LH 20515-0103 tel: 225-3261
Tom Bevill 1630 LH 20515-0103 tel: 225-3261
Ronnie G. Flippo 2334 RH 20515-0105 tel: 225-4801 fax: 225-4392
* Ben Erdreich 439 CH 20515-0106 tel: 225-4921
Claude Harris 1009 LH 20515-0107 tel: 225-2665 fax: 225-0175
Alaska (0/1)
Don Young 2331 RH 20515-0201 tel: 225-5765 fax: 225-3208
Arizona (1/5)
John J. Rhodes III 412 CH 20515-0301 tel: 225-2635 fax: 225-0985
* Morris K. Udall 235 CH 20515-0302 tel: 225-4065 fax: 225-1176
Bob Stump 211 CH 20515-0303 tel: 225-4576 fax: 225-6328
Jon Kyl 313 CH 20515-0304 tel: 225-3361 fax: 225-1143
Jim Kolbe 410 CH 20515-0305 tel: 225-2542 fax: 225-0378
Arkansas (0/4)
Bill Alexander 233 CH 20515-0401 tel: 225-4076 fax: 225-6182
Tommy F. Robinson 1541 LH 20515-0402 tel: 225-2506 fax: 225-9273
John Paul Hammerschmidt 2110 RH 20515-0403 tel: 225-4301 fax: 225-1141
Beryl F. Anthony, Jr. 1117 LH 20515-0404 tel: 225-3772 fax: 225-3646
California (17/45)
Douglas H. Bosco 225 CH 20515-0501 tel: 225-3311 fax: 225-5577
Wally Herger 1108 LH 20515-0502 tel: 225-3076
* Robert T. Matsui 2419 RH 20515-0503 tel: 225-7163 fax: 225-0566
* Vic Fazio 2113 RH 20515-0504 tel: 225-5716 fax: 225-0354
* Nancy Pelosi 1005 LH 20515-0505 tel: 225-4965 fax: 225-8259
* Barbara Boxer 307 CH 20515-0506 tel: 225-5161
George Miller 2228 RH 20515-0507 tel: 225-2095 fax: 225-5609
* Ronald V. Dellums 2136 RH 20515-0508 tel: 225-2661 fax: 225-9817
* Fortney H. (Pete) Stark 1125 LH 20515-0509 tel: 225-5065
Don Edwards 2307 RH 20515-0510 tel: 225-3072 fax: 225-9460
* Tom Lantos 1526 LH 20515-0511 tel: 225-3531 fax: 225-3531
* Tom Campbell 1730 LH 20515-052 tel: 225-5411 fax: 225-5944
Norman Y. Mineta 2350 RH 20515-0513 tel: 225-2631
Norman D. Shumway 1203 LH 20515-0514 tel: 225-2511 fax: 225-5444
Tony Coelho 403 CH 20515-0515 tel: 225-6131 fax: 225-0819
* Leon E. Panetta 339 CH 20515-0516 tel: 225-2861
Charles Pashayan, Jr. 203 CH 20515-0517 tel: 225-3341 fax: 225-9308
Richard H. Lehman 1319 LH 20515-0518 tel: 225-4540
Robert J. Lagomarsino 2332 RH 20515-0519 tel: 225-3601 fax: 225-3096
William M. Thomas 2402 RH 20515-0520 tel: 225-2915 fax: 225-8798
Elton Gallegly 107 CH 20515-0521 tel: 225-5811
Carlos J. Moorhead 2346 RH 20515-0522 tel: 225-4176 fax: 226-1279
* Anthony C. Beilenson 1025 LH 20515-0523 tel: 225-5911
Henry A. Waxman 2418 RH 20515-0524 tel: 225-3976 fax: 225-4099
Edward R. Roybal 2211 RH 20515-0525 tel: 225-6235 fax: 226-1251
Howard L. Berman 137 CH 20515-0526 tel: 225-4695
* Mel Levine 132 CH 20515-0527 tel: 225-6451 fax: 225-6975
Julian C. Dixon 2400 RH 20515-0528 tel: 225-7084 fax: 225-4091
Augustus F. Hawkins 2371 RH 20515-0529 tel: 225-2201 fax: 225-7854
* Matthew G. Martinez 240 CH 20515-0530 tel: 225-5464 fax: 225-5467
Mervyn M. Dymally 1717 LH 20515-0531 tel: 225-5425 fax: 225-6847
Glenn M. Anderson 2329 RH 20515-0532 tel: 225-6676 fax: 225-1597
David Dreier 411 CH 20515-0533 tel: 225-2305
* Esteban Edward Torres 1740 LH 20515-0534 tel: 225-5256 fax: 225-9711
Jerry Lewis 2312 RH 20515-0535 tel: 225-5861 fax: 225-6498
* George E. Brown, Jr. 2188 RH 20515-0536 tel: 225-6161
Al McCandless 2435 CH 20515-0537 tel: 225-5330 fax: 226-1040
* Robert K. Dornan 301 CH 20515-0538 tel: 225-2965 fax: 225-3694
William E. Dannemeyer 2351 RH 20515-0539 tel: 225-4111
C. Christopher Cox 510 CH 20515-0540 tel: 225-5611 fax: 225-9177
Bill Lowery 2433 RH 20515-0541 tel: 225-3201 fax: 225-7383
Dana Rohrabacher 1017 LH 20515-0542 tel: 225-2415 fax: 225-0145
* Ron Packard 316 CH 20515-0543 tel: 225-3906 fax: 225-0134
* Jim Bates 224 CH 20515-0544 tel: 225-5452 fax: 225-2558
Duncan L. Hunter 133 CH 20515-0545 tel: 225-5672 fax: 225-0235
Colorado (4/6)
* Patricia Schroeder 2208 RH 20515-0601 tel: 225-4431 fax: 225-5842
* David E. Skaggs 1709 LH 20515-0602 tel: 225-2161
* Ben Nighthorse Campbell 1724 LH 20515-0603 tel: 225-4761 fax: 225-0228
Hank Brown 1724 LH 20515-0604 tel: 225-4676 fax: 225-8630
Joel Hefley 222 CH 20515-0605 tel: 225-4422 fax: 225-1942
* Dan Schaefer 1317 LH 20515-0606 tel: 225-7882 fax: 225-7885
Connecticut (5/6)
* Barbara B. Kennelly 204 CH 20515-0701 tel: 225-2265 fax: 225-1031
* Sam Gejdenson 1410 LH 20515-0702 tel: 225-2076 fax: 225-4977
Bruce A. Morrison 330 CH 20515-0703 tel: 225-3661
* Christopher Shays 1531 LH 20515-0704 tel: 225-5541 fax: 225-9629
* John G. Rowland 329 CH 20515-0705 tel: 225-3822 fax: 225-5085
* Nancy L. Johnson 119 CH 20515-0706 tel: 225-4476 fax: 225-4488
Delaware (0/1)
Thomas R. Carper 131 CH 20515-0801 tel: 225-4165 fax: 225-1912
Florida (2/18)
Earl Hutto 2435 RH 20515-0901 tel: 225-4136 fax: 225-5785
Bill Grant 1333 LH 20515-0902 tel: 225-5235 fax: 225-1586
* Charles E. Bennett 2107 RH 20515-0903 tel: 225-2501 fax: 225-9635
Craig T. James 1408 LH 20515-0904 tel: 225-4035 fax: 225-1727
Bill McCollum 1507 LH 20515-0905 tel: 225-2176
Cliff Stearns 1723 LH 20515-0906 tel: 225-5744
Sam M. Gibbons 2204 RH 20515-0907 tel: 225-3376
C.W. Bill Young 2407 RH 20515-0908 tel: 225-5961 fax: 225-9764
Michael Bilirakis 1530 LH 20515-0909 tel: 225-5755 fax: 225-4085
Andy Ireland 2416 RH 20515-0910 tel: 225-5015 fax: 225-6944
Bill Nelson 2404 RH 20515-0911 tel: 225-3671 fax: 225-9039
Tom Lewis 1216 LH 20515-0912 tel: 225-5792 fax: 225-1860
Porter J. Goss 509 CH 20515-0913 tel: 225-2536 fax: 225-6820
Harry A. Johnson, II 1517 LH 20515-0914 tel: 225-3001 fax: 225-8791
E. Clay Shaw, Jr. 440 CH 20515-0915 tel: 225-3026 fax: 225-8398
* Lawrence J. Smith 113 CH 20515-0916 tel: 225-7931 fax: 225-9816
William Lehman 2347 RH 20515-0917 tel: 225-4211 fax: 225-6208
Claude Pepper (dead) 2239 RH 20515-0918 tel: 225-3931 fax: 225-5620
Dante B. Fascell 2354 RH 20515-0919 tel: 225-4506 fax: 225-0724
Georgia (3/10)
Lindsay Thomas 431 CH 20515-1001 tel: 225-5831 fax: 225-6922
Charles F. Hatcher 405 CH 20515-1002 tel: 225-3631 fax: 225-1117
Richard Ray 425 CH 20515-1003 tel: 225-5901 fax: 225-1598
* Ben Jones 514 CH 20515-1004 tel: 225-4272 fax: 225-8675
* John Lewis 501 CH 20515-1005 tel: 225-3801 fax: 225-0351
* Newt Gingrich 2438 RH 20515-1006 tel: 225-4501 fax: 225-4656
George (Buddy) Darden 228 CH 20515-1007 tel: 225-2931
J. Roy Rowland 423 CH 20515-1008 tel: 225-6531
Ed Jenkins 2427 RH 20515-1009 tel: 225-5221
Doug Barnard, Jr. 2227 RH 20515-1010 tel: 225-4101 fax: 225-1873
Hawaii (1/2)
Patricia Saiki 1609 LH 20515-1101 tel: 225-1716 fax: 225-4580
* Daniel K. Akaka 2301 RH 20515-1102 tel: 225-4906 fax: 225-4987
Idaho (0/2)
Larry E. Craig 1034 LH 20515-1201 tel: 225-6611 fax: 226-1213
Richard H. Stallings 1221 LH 20515-1202 tel: 225-5531 fax: 225-2393
Illinois (14/22)
* Charles A. Hayes 1028 LH 20515-1301 tel: 225-4371 fax: 225-7571
Gus Savage 1121 LH 20515-1302 tel: 225-0773 fax: 226-8608
* Marty Russo 2233 RH 20515-1303 tel: 225-5736 fax: 225-0295
* George E. Sangmeister 1607 LH 20515-1304 tel: 225-3635 fax: 225-4447
* William O. Lipinski 1032 LH 20515-1305 tel: 225-5701 fax: 225-1012
* Henry J. Hyde 2104 RH 20515-1306 tel: 225-4561 fax: 226-1240
* Cardiss Collins 2264 RH 20515-1307 tel: 225-5006 fax: 225-8396
Dan Rostenkowski 2111 RH 20515-1308 tel: 225-4061 fax: 225-6064
* Sidney R. Yates 2234 RH 20515-1309 tel: 225-2111 fax: 225-3493
* John Edward Porter 1501 LH 20515-1310 tel: 225-4835 fax: 225-0157
Frank Annunzio 2303 RH 20515-1311 tel: 225-6661
Philip M. Crane 1035 LH 20515-1312 tel: 225-3711
* Harris W. Fawell 318 CH 20515-1313 tel: 225-3515 fax: 225-9240
* J. Dennis Hastert 515 CH 20515-1314 tel: 225-2976 fax: 225-0697
* Edward R. Madigan 2109 RH 20515-1315 tel: 225-2371
Lynn M. Martin 1214 LH 20515-1316 tel: 225-5676
* Lane Evans 328 CH 20515-1317 tel: 225-5905 fax: 225-5396
Robert H. Michel 2112 RH 20515-1318 tel: 225-6201 fax: 225-9461
Terry L. Bruce 419 CH 20515-1319 tel: 225-5001 fax: 225-9810
* Richard J. Durbin 129 CH 20515-1320 tel: 225-5271
Jerry F. Costello 1529 LH 20515-1321 tel: 225-5661 fax: 225-0285
* Glenn Poshard 1229 LH 20515-1322 tel: 225-5201 fax: 225-1541
Indiana: (2/9) office phone
Burton, Dan (R-6th IN) 120 225-4511
Hamilton, Lee H. (D-9th IN) 2187 225-5315
* Hiler, John (R-3rd IN) 407 225-3915
* Jontz, Jim (D-5th IN) 1039 225-5037
Long, Jill (D-4th IN) 1632 225-4436
McCloskey, Frank (D-8th IN) 127 225-4636
Meyers, John T. (R-7th IN) 2372 225-5805
* Sharp, Philip R (D-2nd IN) 2217 225-3021
Visclosky, Peter J (D-1st IN) 420 225-2461
Iowa: (0/6)
Grandy, Fred (R-6th IA) 418 225-5476
Leach,Jim (R-1st IA) 1514 225-6576
Lightfoot, Jim (R-5th) 1222 225-3806
Nagle, David R (D-3rd IA) 214 225-3301
Smith, Neal (D-4th IA) 2373 225-4426
Tauke, Thomas J (R-2nd IA) 2244 225-2911
Kansas (3/5)
Pat Roberts 1323 LH 20515-1601 tel: 225-2715 fax: 225-5375
* Jim Slattery 440 LH 20515-1602 tel: 225-6601
Jan Meyers 315 CH 20515-1603 tel: 225-2865 fax: 225-0554
* Bob Whittaker
* Dan Glickman
Kentucky (1/7)
* Carroll Hubbard, Jr. 2267 RH 20515-1701 tel: 225-3115 fax: 225-1622
William H. Natcher 2333 RH 20515-1702 tel: 225-3501
Romano L. Mazzoli 2246 RH 20515-1703 tel: 225-5401
Jim Bunning 116 CH 20515-1704 tel: 225-3465 fax: 225-0003
Harold Rogers 434 CH 20515-1705 tel: 225-4601 fax: 225-0940
Larry J. Hopkins 2437 RH 20515-1706 tel: 225-4706 fax: 225-1413
Carl C. Perkins 1004 LH 20515-1707 tel: 225-4935
Louisiana (3/8)
Bob Livingston 2412 RH 20515-1801 tel: 225-3015 fax: 225-0739
Lindy Boggs 2353 RH 20515-1802 tel: 226-6636 fax: 226-1239
* W.J.(Billy) Tauzin 2342 RH 20515-1803 tel: 225-4031
Jim McCrery 1721 LH 20515-1804 tel: 225-2777 fax: 225-8039
Jerry Huckaby 2182 RH 20515-1805 tel: 225-2376 fax: 225-2387
Richard Baker 404 CH 20515-1806 tel: 225-3901 fax: 225-7313
* Jimmy Hayes 1028 LH 20515-1301 tel: 225-4372 fax: 225-7571
* Clyde C. Holloway 1206 LH 20515-1808 tel: 225-4926 fax: 225-6252
MAINE (0/2)
Joseph E. Brennan 1428 LH 20515-1901 tel: 225-6116 fax: 225-9065
Olympia J. Snowe 2464 RH 20515-1902 tel: 225-6306 fax: 225-8880
MARYLAND (1/8)
Roy P. Dyson 326 CH 20515-2001 tel: 225-5331 fax: 225-0254
Helen Delich Bentley 1610 LH 20515-2002 tel: 225-3061 fax: 225-4251
Benjamin L. Cardin 507 CH 20515-2003 tel: 225-4016 fax: 225-9219
Tom McMillen 327 CH 20515-2004 tel: 225-8090 fax: 225-8099
* Steny H. Hoyer 1513 LH 20515-2005 tel: 225-4131 fax: 225-4300
Beverly B. Byron 2430 RH 20515-2006 tel: 225-2721 fax: 225-6159
Kweisi Mfume 128 CH 20515-2007 tel: 225-4741
Constance A. Morella 1024 LH 20515-2008 tel: 225-5341 fax: 225-1389
MASSACHUSETTS (5/11)
* Silvio O. Conte 2300 RH 20515-2101 tel: 225-5335 fax: 226-1224
Richard E. Neal 1631 LH 20515-2102 tel: 225-5601 fax: 225-8112
Joseph D. Early 2349 RH 20515-2103 tel: 225-6101 fax: 225-3181
Barney Frank 1030 LH 20515-2104225-5931
* Chester G. Atkins 504 CH 20515-2105 tel: 225-3411
Nicholas Mavroules 2432 RH 20515-2106 tel: 225-8020 fax: 225-8023
Edward J. Markey 2133 RH 20515-2107 tel: 225-2836
* Joseph P. Kennedy II 1208 LH 20515-2108 tel: 225-5111 fax: 225-9322
* Joe Moakley 221 CH 20515-2109 tel: 225-8273 fax: 225-7804
* Gerry E. Studds 237 CH 20515-2110 tel: 225-3111
Brian Donnelly 2229 RH 20515-2111 tel: 225-3215
MICHIGAN (1/18)
John Conyers, Jr. 2426 RH 20515-2201 tel: 225-5126 fax: 225-0072
Carl D. Pursell 1414 LH 20515-2202 tel: 225-4401
Howard Wolpe 1535 LH 20515-2203 tel: 225-5011 fax: 225-8602
Fred Upton 1713 LH 20515-2204 tel: 225-3761 fax: 225-4986
Paul B. Henry 215 CH 20515-2205 tel: 225-3831
Bob Carr 2439 RH 20515-2206 tel: 225-4872 fax: 225-1260
Dale E. Kildee 2262 RH 20515-2207 tel: 225-3611 fax: 225-3692
Bob Traxler 2366 RH 20515-2208 tel: 225-2806 fax: 225-3046
Guy Vander Jagt 2409 RH 20515-2209 tel: 225-3511
Bill Schuette 415 CH 20515-2210 tel: 225-3561 fax: 225-6971
Robert W. Davis 2417 RH 20515-2211 tel: 225-4735 fax: 225-3588
David E. Bonior 2242 RH 20515-2212 tel: 225-2106 fax: 226-1169
* George W. Crockett, Jr. 2235 RH 20515-2213 tel: 225-2261
Dennis M. Hertel 2442 RH 20515-2214 tel: 225-6276
William D. Ford 239 CH 20515-2215 tel: 225-6261
John D. Dingell 2221 RH 20515-2216 tel: 225-4071 fax: 225-7426
Sander M. Levin 323 CH 20515-2217 tel: 225-4961
William S. Broomfield 2306 RH 20515-2218 tel: 225-6135 fax: 225-1807
MINNESOTA (4/8)
* Timothy J. Penny 436 CH 20515-2301 tel: 225-2472 fax: 225-0051
* Vin Weber 106 CH 20515-2302 tel: 225-2331 fax: 225-0987
Bill Frenzel 1026 LH 20515-2303 tel: 225-2871 fax: 225-6351
* Bruce F. Vento 2304 RH 20515-2304 tel: 225-6631 fax: 225-1968
Martin Olav Sabo 2201 RH 20515-2305 tel: 225-4755
* Gerry Sikorski 414 CH 20515-2306 tel: 225-2271 fax: 225-4347
Arlan Stangeland 2245 RH 20515-2307 tel: 225-2165 fax: 225-1593
James L. Oberstar 2209 RH 20515-2308 tel: 225-6211 fax: 225-0699
MISSISSIPPI (1/5)
Jamie L. Whitten 2314 RH 20515-2401 tel: 225-4306 fax: 225-4328
Mike Espy 216 CH 20515-2402 tel: 225-5876 fax: 225-5898
* G.V. (Sonny) Montgomery 2184 RH 20515-2403 tel: 225-5031
Mike Parker 1725 LH 20515-2404 tel: 225-5865 fax: 225-5886
Larkin Smith 516 CH 20515-2405 tel: 225-5772 fax: 225-7074
MISSOURI (2/9)
William L. (Bill) Clay 2470 RH 25015-2501 tel: 225-2406 fax: 225-1783
Jack Buechner 502 CH 20515-2502 tel: 225-2561 fax: 225-1378
* Richard A. Gephardt 1432 LH 20515-2503 tel: 225-2671 fax: 225-7452
Ike Skelton 2134 RH 20515-2504 tel: 225-2876 fax: 225-2695
Alan Wheat 1204 LH 20515-2505 tel: 225-4535
E. Thomas Coleman 2468 RH 20515-2506 tel: 225-7041 fax: 225-4799
Mel Hancock 511 CH 20515-2507 tel: 225-6536 fax: 225-7700
Bill Emerson 438 CH 20515-2508 tel: 225-4404 fax: 225-9621
* Harold L. Volkmer 2411 RH 20515-2509 tel: 225-2956 fax: 225-7834
MONTANA (1/2)
* Pat Williams 2457 RH 20515-2601 tel: 225-3211 fax: 225-1257
Ron Marlenee 2465 RH 20515-2602 tel: 225-1555 fax: 225-1558
NEBRASKA (0/3)
Doug Bereuter 2446 RH 20515-2701 tel: 225-4806 fax: 226-1148
Peter Hoagland 1415 LH 20515-2702 tel: 225-4155 fax: 225-4684
Virginia Smith 2202 RH 20515-2703 tel: 225-6435 fax: 225-0207
NEVADA (1/2)
* James H. Bilbray 319 CH 20515-2801 tel: 225-5965 fax: 225-8808
Barbara Vucanovich 206 CH 20515-2802 tel: 225-6155 fax: 225-2319
NEW HAMPSHIRE (1/2)
* Robert C. Smith 115 CH 20515-2901 tel: 225-5456
Chuck Douglas 1338 LH 20515-2902 tel: 225-5206 fax: 225-0046
NEW JERSEY (8/14)
James J. Florio 2162 RH 20515-3001 tel: 225-6501
William J. Hughes 341 CH 20515-3003 tel: 225-6572 fax: 226-1108
Frank Pallone, Jr. 1207 LH 20515-3003 tel: 225-4671 fax: 225-9665
* Christopher H. Smith 2440 RH 25015-3004 tel: 225-3765 fax: 225-7768
Marge Roukema 303 CH 20515-3005 tel: 225-4465 fax: 225-9048
* Bernard J. Dwyer 2428 RH 20515-3006 tel: 225-6301 fax: 225-1553
* Matthew J. Rinaldo 2469 RH 20515-3007 tel: 225-5361 fax: 225-5679
* Robert A. Roe 2243 RH 20515-3008 tel: 225-5751 fax: 225-3071
* Robert G. Torricelli 317 CH 20515-3009 tel: 225-5061 fax: 225-0843
Donald Payne 417 CH 20515-3010 tel: 225-3436
Dean A. Gallo 1318 LH 20515-3011 tel: 225-5034 fax: 225-0658
* Jim Courter 2422 RH 20515-3012 tel: 225-5801 fax: 225-9181
* H. James Saxton 324 CH 20515-3013 tel: 225-4765 fax: 225-0778
* Frank J. Guarini 2458 RH 20515-3014 tel: 225-2765 fax: 225-7023
NEW MEXICO (1/3)
* Steven H. Schiff 1520 LH 20515-3101 tel: 225-6316 fax: 225-4975
Joe Skeen 1007 LH 20515-3102 tel: 225-2365 fax: 225-9599
Bill Richardson 332 CH 20515-3103 tel: 225-6190
NEW YORK (24/34)
* George J. Hochbrueckner 124 CH 20515-3201 tel: 225-3826 fax: 225-0776
Thomas J. Downey 2232 RH 20515-3202 tel: 225-3335 fax: 226-1275
* Robert J. Mrazek 306 CH 20515-3203 tel: 225-5956 fax: 225-7215
* Norman F. Lent 2408 RH 20515-3204 tel: 225-7896 fax: 225-0357
* Raymond J. McGrath 205 CH 20515-3205 tel: 225-5516 fax: 225-3625
* Floyd H. Flake 1427 LH 20515-3206 tel: 225-3461 fax: 226-4169
* Gary L. Ackerman 238 CH 20515-3207 tel: 225-2601 fax: 225-1589
* James H. Scheuer 2466 RH 20515-3208 tel: 225-5471 fax: 225-9695
* Thomas J. Manton 331 CH 20515-3209 tel: 225-3965 fax: 225-1452
Charles E. Schumer 126 CH 20515-3210 tel: 225-6616 fax: 225-4183
* Edolphus Towns 1726 LH 20515-3211 tel: 225-5936 fax: 225-1018
* Major R. Owens 114 CH 20515-3212 tel: 225-6231
Stephen J. Solarz 1536 LH 20515-3213 tel: 225-2361 fax: 225-9469
Guy V. Molinari 2453 RH 20515-3214 tel: 225-3371 fax: 226-1272
* Bill Green 1110 LH 20515-3215 tel: 225-2436 fax: 225-0840
* Charles B. Rangel 2252 RH 20515-3216 tel: 225-4365 fax: 225-0816
* Ted Weiss 2467 RH 20515-3217 tel: 225-5635 fax: 225-6923
* Robert Garcia 2238 RH 20515-3218 tel: 225-4361
Eliot L. Engel 1407 LH 20515-3219 tel: 225-2464
* Nita M. Lowey 1313 LH 20515-3220 tel: 225-6506 fax: 225-0546
Hamilton Fish, Jr. 2269 RH 20515-3221 tel: 225-5441 fax: 225-0962
* Benjamin A. Gilman 2185 RH 20515-3222 tel: 225-3776 fax: 225-9636
* Michael R. McNulty 1431 LH 20515-3223 tel: 225-5076
Gerald B. Solomon 2265 RH 20515-3224 tel: 225-5614 fax: 225-1668
* Sherwood L. Boehlert 1127 LH 20515-3225 tel: 225-3665 fax: 225-1891
David O'B. Martin 442 CH 20515-3226 tel: 225-4611
* James T. Walsh 1238 LH 20515-3227 tel: 225-3701 fax: 225-4042
* Matthew F. McHugh 2335 RH 20515-3228 tel: 225-6335 fax: 225-1799
* Frank Horton 2108 RH 20515-3229 tel: 225-4916 fax: 225-5909
* Louise M. Slaughter 1707 LH 20515-3230 tel: 225-3615 fax: 225-7822
* Bill Paxon 1711 LH 20515-3231 tel: 225-5265 fax: 225-5910
* John J. LaFalce 2367 RH 20515-3232 tel: 225-3231 fax: 225-8693
Henry J. Nowak 2240 RH 20515-3233 tel: 225-3306 fax: 225-3523
Amo Houghton 1217 LH 20515-3234 tel: 225-3161 fax: 225-5574
NORTH CAROLINA (6/11)
* Walter B. Jones 241 CH 20515-3301 tel: 225-3101
* Tim Valentine 1510 LH 20515-3302 tel: 225-4531 fax: 225-1539
* H. Martin Lancaster 1417 LH 20515-3303 tel: 225-3415 fax: 225-0666
* David E. Price 1224 LH 20515-3304 tel: 225-1784 fax: 225-6314
* Stephen L. Neal 2463 RH 20515-3305 tel: 225-2071 fax: 225-4060
Howard Coble 430 CH 20515-3306 tel: 225-3065 fax: 225-8611
* Charlie Rose 2230 RH 20515-3307 tel: 225-2731 fax: 225-2470
W.G.(Bill) Hefner 2161 RH 20515-3308 tel: 225-3715 fax: 225-4036
Alex McMillan 401 CH 20515-3309 tel: 225-1976 fax: 225-8995
Cass Ballenger 218 CH 20515-3310 tel: 225-2576 fax: 225-0316
James McClure Clarke 217 CH 20515-3311 tel: 225-6401 fax: 225-0519
NORTH DAKOTA (1/1)
* Byron L. Dorgan 109 CH 20515-3401 tel: 225-2611 fax: 225-9436
OHIO (5/21)
* Thomas A. Luken 2368 RH 20515-3501 tel: 225-2216 fax: 225-2293
Willis D. Gradison, Jr. 2311 RH 20515-3502 tel: 225-3164
* Tony P. Hall 2448 RH 20515-3503 tel: 225-6465 fax: 225-6766
Michael G. Oxley 1131 LH 20515-3504 tel: 225-2676
Paul E. Gillmor 1008 LH 20515-3505 tel: 225-6405
Bob McEwen 2431 RH 20515-3506 tel: 225-5705 fax: 225-0224
Michael DeWine 1705 LH 20515-3507 tel: 225-4324 fax: 225-1984
* Donald E. (Buz) Lukens 117 CH 20515-3508 tel: 225-6205 fax: 225-0704
Marcy Kaptur 1228 LH 20515-3505 tel: 225-4146 fax: 225-7711
Clarence E. Miller 2308 RH 20515-3510 tel: 225-5131 fax: 225-5132
Dennis E. Eckart 1210 LH 20515-3511 tel: 225-6331 fax: 225-1514
John R. Kasich 113 LH 20515-3512 tel: 225-5355
Don J. Pease 2410 RH 20515-3513 tel: 225-3401 fax: 225-0066
Thomas C. Sawyer 1518 LH 20515-3514 tel: 225-5231 fax: 225-5278
Chalmers P. Wylie 2310 RH 20515-3515 tel: 225-2015 fax: 225-7548
Ralph Regula 2207 RH 20515-3516 tel: 225-3876 fax: 225-3059
James A. Traficant, Jr. 312 CH 20515-3517 tel: 225-5261 fax: 225-3719
Douglas Applegate 2183 RH 20515-3518 tel: 225-6265 fax: 225-3087
* Edward F. Feighan 1124 LH 20515-3519 tel: 225-5731 fax: 226-1230
Mary Rose Oakar 2231 RH 20515-3520 tel: 225-5871 fax: 225-0663
* Louis Stokes 2365 RH 20515-3521 tel: 225-7032 fax: 225-1339
OKLAHOMA (1/6)
James M. Inhofe 408 CH 20515-3601 tel: 225-2211 fax: 225-9187
* Mike Synar 2441 RH 20515-3602 tel: 225-2701 fax: 225-2796
Wes Watkins 2348 RH 20515-3603 tel: 225-4565 fax: 225-9029
Dave McCurdy 2344 RH 20515-3604 tel: 225-6165
Mickey Edwards 2330 RH 20515-3605 tel: 225-2132
Glenn English 2206 RH 20515-3606 tel: 225-5565 fax: 225-8698
OREGON (3/5)
* Les AuCoin 2159 RH 20515-3701 tel: 225-0855 fax: 225-2707
Robert F. (Bob) Smith 118 CH 20515-3702 tel: 225-6730 fax: 225-3129
* Ron Wyden 2452 RH 20515-3703 tel: 225-4811
* Peter A. DeFazio 1728 LH 20515-3704 tel: 225-6416 fax: 225-0694
Denny Smith 1213 LH 20515-3705 tel: 225-5711 fax: 225-9711
PENNSYLVANIA (6/23)
* Thomas M. Foglietta 231 CH 20515-3801 tel: 225-4731
William H. Gray III 2454 RH 20515-3802 tel: 225-4001 fax: 225-2995
* Robert A. Borski 314 CH 20515-3803 tel: 225-8251 fax: 225-4628
* Joe Kolter 212 CH 20515-3804 tel: 225-2565 fax: 225-0526
Richard T. Schulze 2369 RH 20515-3805 tel: 225-5761
Gus Yatron 2205 RH 20515-3806 tel: 225-5546 fax: 225-5548
Curt Weldon 1233 LH 20515-3807 tel: 225-2011 fax: 225-8137
Peter H. Kostmayer 123 CH 20515-3808 tel: 225-4276 fax: 225-5060
Bud Shuster 2268 RH 20515-3809 tel: 225-2431
Joseph M. McDade 2370 RH 20515-3810 tel: 225-3731 fax: 225-9594
Paul E. Kanjorski 424 CH 20515-3811 tel: 225-6511
John P. Murtha 2423 RH 20515-3812 tel: 225-2065 fax: 225-5709
Lawrence Coughlin 2309 RH 20515-3813 tel: 225-6111
* William J. Coyne 2455 RH 20515-3814 tel: 225-2301 fax: 225-1844
* Don Ritter 2447 RH 20515-3815 tel: 225-6411 fax: 225-52488
Robert S. Walker 2445 RH 20515-3816 tel: 225-2411 fax: 225-2484
George W. Gekas 1519 LH 20515-3817 tel: 225-4315 fax: 225-8440
Doug Walgren 2241 RH 20515-3818 tel: 225-2135 fax: 225-7747
William F. Goodling 2263 RH 20515-3819 tel: 225-5836 fax: 225-1000
Joseph M. Gaydos 2186 RH 20515-3820 tel: 225-4631
Tom Ridge 1714 LH 20515-3821 tel: 225-5406 fax: 225-1081
Austin J. Murghy 2210 RH 20515-3822 tel: 225-4665 fax: 225-4772
* William F. Clinger, Jr. 2160 RH 20515-3823 tel: 225-5121 fax: 225-4681
RHODE ISLAND (2/2)
* Ron Machtley 1123 LH 20515-3901 tel: 225-4911
* Claudine Schneider 1512 LH 20515-3902 tel: 225-2735 fax: 225-9580
SOUTH CAROLINA (1/6)
Arthur Ravenel, Jr. 508 CH 20515-4001 tel: 225-3176 fax: 225-4340
Floyd Spence 2405 RH 20515-4002 tel: 225-2452 fax: 225-2455
Butler Derrick 201 CH 20515-4003 tel: 225-5301
Elizabeth J. Patterson 1641 LH 20515-4004 tel: 225-6030 fax: 225-7664
* John M. Spratt, Jr. 1533 LH 20515-4005 tel: 225-5501 fax: 225-0464
Robin M. Tallon 432 CH 20515-4006 tel: 225-3315 fax: 225-2857
SOUTH DAKOTA (0/1)
Tim Johnson 513 CH 20515-4101 tel: 225-2801 fax: 225-2427
TENNESSEE (2/9)
* James H. Quillen 102 CH 20515-4201 tel: 225-6356 fax: 225-7812
John J. Duncan, Jr. 506 CH 20515-4202 tel: 225-5435 fax: 225-6440
Marilyn Lloyd 2266 RH 20515-4203 tel: 225-3271 fax: 225-6974
* Jim Cooper 125 CH 20515-4204 tel: 225-6831 fax: 225-4520
Bob Clement 325 CH 20515-4205 tel: 225-4311 fax: 226-1035
Bart Gordon 103 CH 20515-4206 tel: 225-4231 fax: 225-6887
Don Sundquist 230 CH 20515-4207 tel: 225-2811 fax: 225-2814
John Tanner 512 CH 20515-4208 tel: 225-4714 fax: 225-1765
Harold E. Ford 2305 RH 20515-4209 tel: 225-3265 fax: 225-9215
TEXAS (7/28)
* Jim Chapman 429 CH 20515-4301 tel: 225-3035 fax: 225-7265
Charles Wilson 2256 RH 20515-4302 tel: 225-2401 fax: 2251764
Steve Bartlett 1113 LH 20515-4303 tel: 225-4201
Ralph M. Hall 236 CH 20515-4304 tel: 225-6673 fax: 225-3332
John Bryant 208 CH 20515-4305 tel: 225-2231 fax: 225-9721
Joe L. Barton 1225 LH 20515-4306 tel: 225-2002 fax: 225-3052
Bill Archer 1135 LH 20515-4307 tel: 225-2571 fax: 225-4381
Jack Fields 108 CH 20515-4308 tel: 225-4901 fax: 225-6899
Jack Brooks 2449 RH 20515-4309 tel: 225-6565 fax: 225-1584
* J.J. Pickle 242 CH 20515-4310 tel: 225-4865
Marvin Leath 336 CH 20515-4311 tel: 225-6105 fax: 225-0350
Jim Wright 1236 LH 20515-4312 tel: 225-5071
Bill Sarpalius 1223 LH 20515-4313 tel: 225-3706 fax: 225-6142
Greg Laughlin 1022 LH 20515-4134 tel: 225-2831
E (Kika) de la Garza 1401 LH 20515-4315 tel: 225-2531 fax: 225-2533
* Ronald D. Coleman 416 CH 20515-4316 tel: 225-4831
Charles W. Stenholm 1226 LH 20515-4317 tel: 225-6605 fax: 225-2234
* Mickey Leland 2236 RH 20515-4318 tel: 225-3816
Larry Combest 1527 LH 20515-4319 tel: 225-4005 fax: 225-9615
Henry B. Gonzalez 2413 RH 20515-4320 tel: 225-3236 fax: 225-1915
Lamar Smith 422 CH 20515-4321 tel: 225-4236 fax: 225-8628
Tom Delay 308 CH 20515-4322 tel: 225-5951 fax: 225-4251
Albert G. Bustamante 1116 LH 20515-4323 tel: 225-4551
* Martin Frost 2459 RH 20515-4324 tel: 225-3605 fax: 225-4951
* Michael A. Andrews 322 CH 20515-4325 tel: 225-7508 fax: 225-4210
* Richard Armey 130 CH 20515-4326 tel: 225-7772 fax: 225-7614
Solomon P. Ortiz 1524 LH 20515-4327 tel: 225-7742 fax: 226-1134
UTAH (1/3)
James V. Hansen 2421 RH 20515-4401 tel: 225-0453 fax: 225-5857
* Wayne Owens 1728 LH 20515-4402 tel: 225-3011 fax: 225-3524
Howard C. Nielson 1122 LH 20515-4403 tel: 225-7751 fax: 226-1223
VERMONT (0/1)
Peter Smith 1020 LH 20515-4501 tel: 225-4115 fax: 225-6790
VIRGINIA (3/10)
Herbert H. Bateman 1230 LH 20515-4601 tel: 225-4261 fax: 225-4382
Owen B. Pickett 1429 LH 20515-4602 tel: 225-4215 fax: 225-4218
Thomas J. Bliley, Jr. 213 CH 20515-4603 tel: 225-2815
Norman Sisisky 426 CH 20515-4604 tel: 225-6365 fax: 225-1469
* Lewis F. Payne, Jr. 1118 LH 20515-4605 tel: 225-4771 fax: 226-1147
* Jim Olin 1314 LH 20515-4606 tel: 225-5431 fax: 225-9623
D. French Slaughter, Jr.1404 LH 20515-4607 tel: 225-6561 fax: 225-0500
Stan Parris 2434 RH 20515-4608 tel: 225-4376 fax: 225-0017
Rick Boucher 428 CH 20515-4609 tel: 225-3861
* Frank R. Wolf 104 CH 20515-4610 tel: 225-5136 fax: 225-0437
WASHINGTON (3/8)
* John Miller 1406 LH 20515-4701 tel: 225-6311
Al Swift 1502 LH 20515-4702 tel: 225-2605
* Jolene Unsoeld 1508 LH 20515-4703 tel: 225-3536 fax: 225-9095
Sid Morrison 1434 LH 20515-4704 tel: 225-5816 fax: 225-9293
Thomas S. Foley 1201 LH 20515-4705 tel: 225-2006
Norman D. Dicks 2429 RH 20515-4706 tel: 225-5916 fax: 226-1176
* Jim McDermott 1107 LH 20515-4707 tel: 225-3106
Rod Chandler 223 CH 20515-4708 tel: 225-7761 fax: 225-0035
WEST VIRGINIA (1/4)
Alan B. Mollohan 437 CH 20515-4801 tel: 225-4172 fax: 225-7564
Harley O. Staggers, Jr. 1504 LH 20515-4802 tel: 225-4331 fax: 225-2962
* Bob Wise 1421 LH 20515-4803 tel: 225-2711 fax: 225-5325
Nick Joe Rahall II
WISCONSIN (4/9)
Les Aspin 2336 RH 20515-4901 tel: 225-3031
* Robert W. Kastenmeier 2328 RH 20515-4902 tel: 225-2906
Steve Gunderson 227 CH 20515-4903 tel: 225-5506 fax: 225-6195
* Gerald D. Kleczka 226 CH 20515-4904 tel: 225-4572 fax: 225-0719
* Jim Moody 1019 LH 20515-4905 tel: 225-3571 fax: 225-1396
* Thomas E. Petri 2443 RH 20515-4906 tel: 225-2476
David Obey 2462 RH 20515-4907 tel: 225-3365 fax: 225-0561
Toby Roth 2352 RH 20515-4908 tel: 225-5665 fax: 225-0087
Jim Sensenbrenner, Jr. 2444 RH 20515-4909 tel: 225-5101 fax: 225-3190
WYOMING (0)
American Samoa (1/1)
* Eni Faleomavaega
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!MCMASTER.BITNET!LINHONG Sun Jul 16 14:16:08 PDT 1989
Article 20207 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!MCMASTER.BITNET!LINHONG
>From: LINHONG@MCMASTER.BITNET
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: thinking
Message-ID: <8907060331.AA01369@jade.berkeley.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 89 18:26:00 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 121
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
I strongly recommend all of us to read this article.
The blood has already spreaded. The situation is still bad at home.
We need to calm to think. We are young, we need to learn, we need to
listen. I talked to several senior visiting scholars who are just
from China recently, it is a long story to tell you. In short, they
believe it would be the darkness at home for a long time. For short
term they hope no matter what we are doing the effect should be not
let the goverment close the door to the West society. For long term
they hope us growing up, the future is our young generation's.
The massacre is just like Peking earthquake, after getting big shock,
our country needs to be recovered.
I wish our student leaders can read the article carefully, when we
take the next step we need to think things through.
"CHINA IS NOT DISNEYLAND'
THE COMMUNISTS HAVE KILLED MILLIIONS OVER THE YEARS, WRITES RICHARD
NIXON, BUT BREAKING RELATIONS NOW WOULD STOP REFORM IN ITS TRACTS
Diplomatic view: DARKNESS AHEAD, BUT CHANGE ON THE WAY
(THE GLOBE AND MAIL, MONDAY, JUNE 26,1989)
Earl drake, Canada's ambassador to China, testifying before a parlia-
mentary committeee in Qttawa last week:
Then (the student protestors)decided- and here I think they made a
fatal error- to carry on until the (Soviet leader Midhail) Gorbachev
visit. They had received a lot of support, a lot of interest up until
then, and they had demonstrated perfectly peacefully. The goverment had
not tried to move them out, had not used clubs or tear gas or anything,
and so they thought, well, we have gotten away with it so far, maybe the
govermetn is listening.....
JUST WHAT WAS SAID
-------------------------
So it was a situation that had become out of hand; the students got
carried away by their success. The government dithered, they frankly did
not know what to do. It had been a response that they had not anticipa-
ted. Moreover, government were worried about how to handle this, because
the stuents, many of them, were the sons and daughters and grandchildren
of the leaders themselves. They did not want to go in and bang the heads
of their own children........
I think the fatal mistake came when(the demonstrators) did two things.
They carried on that long; they publicly humiliated Deng Xiaoping in
front of the world. This was one of the most important visits of his
life, to have a reconceleation with the Soviet Union in front of the
world. They publicly humiliated him.He could not carry out the program
for his guest because of the students. And the students made another
mistake. They began openly to form their own student union.... and some
of the workers began to say, that is a good idea. We will also have our
own union, instead of the formal Communist one.
It is reported that (supreme leader)Deng Xiao ping then called the
leaders together and said, we have to stop this, this has gone too far.
I have been humiliated and we are seeing the beginning of the Polish
syndrome, the forming of independent groups of worders and students.
The regime is threatedned if this begins. We will have to take very
strong action.......
There was then a kind of strange period in which martial law was
declared and nothing much happened. It looked as if it was a joke. But
it was not a joke. I think it tood time to marshal the armies to be sure
that most of the party was on side, and I believe to prepare a propa-
ganda line they could present to the world after they took strong action..
Contrary to what some of the Western press reproted, these students
were not asking for parliamentary democracy and capitalism; nt at all.
What they were saying is we want a reform of the Communist Party...
We are seeing it being reformed in Eastern Europe; we want something
like that. We are seeing economic reform, we also want political reform.
Specifically, what they asked for was freedom of information, freedom
of the press.
The knew that the official press was lying to them... They knew that
everyone in Beijing knew that the government were lying, so they said
we want freedon of the press. We want free information. They said we
want freedon of speech. We want the right to be able to have meetings
and to voice criticisms and to have some dialogue with the goverment,
and we want an end to corruption.
They have blatant corruption; even the Communist Party admitted there
was corruption, and they want an end to corruption.
And then some of them went further and said the old men must go; we
want a change in generations. We want to get rid of the old men who
(have) ruled us for so long. They have done things for China but their
day is past.....The government...decided to take very stern measures...
Some of them at least believed in what they called the "black hand
theory." That is, more than just the students were involved. How could
a group of students sustain this so long? How could they be so knowled-
geable about what was happening? How could thay have such sophisticated
communications?.... some people thought the students were supported by
their prefessors-which I think is quite true-and by a reform group
within the government...probably informing them about what the govern-
ment was doing.
They also believed that there was outside support for it from overseas
Chinese groups, significant support in terms of money and information
coming from Hong Kong and North America. So this gave a conspiracy theory
to it, and the government believed....there really was a plot to overthrow
the Communist system......
I do not think anybody intended to kill that many people, and nobody
knows to this day how many were killed because of the ruthless technique
they used, because they did not just shoot people, but tanks made a point
of rolling over bodies and smashing them, and then troops would come and
burn them with flame throwers. So there is not a very good body count,
but there were a lot...
It is especially poignant that this tragedy happened because China
seemed to be on the march toward economic progress and, for a few heady
weeks, toward modest labor reform as well.
In my view, the old men of the Long March generation have turned back
the clock on political reform, and China is in for a very dark period,
but there is light ahead. The old men who made this decision are not
immortal, although some of them seem to believe they are.
Many in the next generation want to have a change, they have ideas on
how to change it, and they are now quite. They are now...biding their
time, but a tremendous number of able people want China to change.
Moreover, the current leaders, although they oppose political reform,
want economic reform and they want to open this to the West. They want
it because they believe they need it for China to make economic progress.
I believe that if you open the door to the West to bring in technology,
you also let in Western ideas.
If you let in science, you let in an approach to truth. You can not
be a scientist without testing theories against facts, without being
dedicated to disseminating information-and that idea will spread.
It has already begun to spread in China and it cannot be stopped.
From polya!shelby!agate!bionet!csd4.milw.wisc.edu!cs.utexas.edu!husc6!cmcl2!linli Sun Jul 16 14:16:24 PDT 1989
Article 20208 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!bionet!csd4.milw.wisc.edu!cs.utexas.edu!husc6!cmcl2!linli
>From: linli@cmcl2.NYU.EDU (xiaolin li)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: The views of a Deng supporter
Message-ID: <40790@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>
Date: 6 Jul 89 02:42:11 GMT
References: <1937@cbnewsh.ATT.COM>
Reply-To: linli@cmcl2.UUCP (xiaolin li)
Organization: New York University
Lines: 19
In article <1937@cbnewsh.ATT.COM> ka@hulk.att.com writes:
>[From an article by Fox Butterfield, copyright 1989 by the New
>York Times:]
>
I have read the article. From this article, I sensed a dangerous
perception not only by the general but the writer as well. It also makes
me upset that NYT publishes this article. Does it mean some people
in the American administrative level want to deminish the meaning
of the pro-democracy people who died in Deng's 6/4 massacre?
Yes if Deng had not shot so many unarmed civillians, even he had let
Zhao Ziyang step down, he would have still been appreciated for the reform.
Now it is completely different, he has ordered to kill so many
inncent people. He is nothing but a criminal. An international
criminal!
No matter what he did before, he is a criminal now. He should never
be forgiven. Hitler did "good things" to Germen people too!
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!USCN.BITNET!Gr3869 Sun Jul 16 14:16:36 PDT 1989
Article 20209 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!USCN.BITNET!Gr3869
>From: Gr3869@USCN.BITNET
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Gordon's bill vs other bills
Message-ID: <890705231545534.AQRY@205FE.USCN.UGA.EDU>
Date: 6 Jul 89 04:28:28 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 41
I think we should lobby Gordon's bill which will give all of us a chance to
choose: stay or go back. A lot of arguments of not lobbying Gordon's bill are
not substantial. If we do not support Senator Slade Gordon now, how can we ask
him to introduce a similar bill later? Some offers a help, and some of our gu
students out there publicly say "Man, that's not realistic, let's give up."
Think about it.
Someone in his/her argument about why should not lobbying for Slade Gordon's
bill, said that it would cost the American people "suspicious" about our
intention if we lobby Grodon's bill.
First, I would that say this is a sick person's mentality.Consider if there were
40,000 American students in China, and they face the same situation like Chinese
students' do now, what would you like to hear? Practically, "we do not want to
stay(becasue we love America), but we need your government's protection." is not
any better, if not worse than "WE WANT TO STAY. WE LOVE TO STAY." Do not you
remember Chinese people love to hear how foreigners love China and want to stay?
Second, I would say that you guys are misleading Senators, Congressman and even
some Chinese students, when you say you are lobbying for a "waiver" for J-1's
two year home residency requirement. A waiver does not mean you can stay. If you
can not stay, why do you sound like a waiver would solve the problem? You are
being mild here, and I and some people whom you are lobbying do not know your
intention.
Finally I suggest you people who are out there lobbying whomever's bill, ask few
American friends about their attitude. Which bill has better chance to pass?
The answers that I got are, " Why do you want to pass a bill(J-1's two year home
residency requirement) which will not solve most people's problem?", " Gordon's
bill has the same possibility to pass compare with other bills."
If you are Science and Engineering major, sure a waiver(of J-1's ...) may
give you everything you need. How about those Social Science majors? Not to
mention that there are only 2000 per year quota on Chinese student's immigration
, which means that some of you have to wait 20 years.
Be honest. If you want to stay, then say you want to stay. Making a lot of
excuses, which we seen on SCC, MD48 and China-net, will only discredit yourself.
Good luck.
From polya!shelby!decwrl!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!motcsd!hpda!hpcupt1!schi Sun Jul 16 14:18:58 PDT 1989
Article 20220 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!motcsd!hpda!hpcupt1!schi
>From: schi@hpcupt1.HP.COM (Shan Chi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Ted Koppel's TAMS Report
Message-ID: <-288079991@hpcupt1.HP.COM>
Date: 5 Jul 89 16:43:52 GMT
References: <8906291205.AA25044@jade.berkeley.edu>
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino
Lines: 12
Please stop sending me mail. Response 1 under my name was a mistake.
Now here is my opinion:
Ted Koppel was also under pressure. If he did not corporate with CCP to
a certain degree, he might not be allowed to do report in China any more.
If you watched recent news reports, you'll see most reporters tried very
hard not to upset the CCP officials. I think they had some kind of agreement
between them. The agreement, which could be explicit or implicit, probably
says "You (CCP) give me the opportunity to dig out news (by interviewing you)
and I shall try not to do any harm."
This is my own opinion. No one else but I shall be resposible for it.
From polya!shelby!decwrl!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!motcsd!hpda!hpcupt1!hpirs!dennis Sun Jul 16 14:19:22 PDT 1989
Article 20221 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!motcsd!hpda!hpcupt1!hpirs!dennis
>From: dennis@hpirs.HP.COM (Dennis D. Lee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Organization Suvery: Please repsond
Message-ID: <12240022@hpirs.HP.COM>
Date: 5 Jul 89 16:33:49 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino
Lines: 32
I am trying to compose a list of all the organizations that are
supporting the Chinese Democracy movement in China. Such a list
will help us contact each other and consolidate/coordinate our
efforts much better. I'll post the list on the net and update it
periodically.
If you belong to such an organization, please reply to this basenote
or send mail to :
dennis%hpirs@hplabs.hp.com
or hplabs!hpirs!dennis
by filling up the following form:
Organization Name:
Address:
Phone Number:
Name of Contact Person:
Projects: [ What are you working on eg. Godess of Democracy Statue]
Donation Funds Usage: [ I think this is important since we would
like the public to know that the donations
are actually going to good use. eg Red Cross ]
Additional Comment: [ If Any ]
-dennis
From polya!shelby!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!eecae!cps3xx!usenet Sun Jul 16 14:20:35 PDT 1989
Article 20225 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!eecae!cps3xx!usenet
>From: usenet@cps3xx.UUCP (Usenet file owner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: No punishment for oversee student? -Radio Beijing.
Message-ID: <3668@cps3xx.UUCP>
Date: 6 Jul 89 03:39:20 GMT
References: <26043@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>
Reply-To: mailc@frith.UUCP ( dumm user for Case mail)
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 12
>From Radio Beijing today ( 7-5-89, 10:00 pm EDT) China's foreign
ministry condemned news media and denied the news that Chinese student in
US were threatened by embassy and consulate. The spokesman said students
who participated in protest activities would be dealt with
leniently(Kuan1 Da4 Chu3 Li3)
In the dictionary of present China, this means we all committed crime
and will receive punishment later. Remember, CCP promised no punishment
to student leaders in Beijing before 5-19. How about now? The
anouncement strongly indicated that CCP is going to deal with students
outside China now!!!
From polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!mailrus!caen.engin.umich.edu!elh Sun Jul 16 14:20:51 PDT 1989
Article 20226 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!mailrus!caen.engin.umich.edu!elh
>From: elh@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ed_Han)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Special Agents. .
Keywords: Let them feel painful.
Message-ID: <444080e9.19c13@locust.engin.umich.edu>
Date: 6 Jul 89 06:03:00 GMT
References: <40786@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>
Reply-To: elh@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ed_Han)
Organization: caen
Lines: 86
I'm posting the following message at the author's request.
Please reply to Xin_Zhang@ub.cc.umich.edu .
============================================================
>From: Xin_Zhang@ub.cc.umich.edu
To: csu_group@ub.cc.umich.edu
Subject: Surrender, the Special Agents!
Surrender, those Special Agents!
About a month ago, our fellow student Zhu Zhiliang, the then
coordinator of the Action Committee at the University of Michigan, has
received an anonymous call. A Chinese voice warned him of his
activities against the CCP. Similar harassing calls occured at
Wisconsin and Berkeley . In Canada, a Chinese consul at Vancouver Liu
Zhanxiang has made similar calls to students there. It was said
recently the CCP has increased their special agent activities on major
campuses overseas against our protest against the fascist government.
The students at Univ. of Michigan are not scared away but rather
outraged. They remember that in Jan 1987, Wang Jialing, a student at
Eastern Michigan University, forged signatures of some other Chinese
students to endorse a letter written by him, condenming the student
demonstration at that time. This letter was printed in the Jan. 11
issue of The People's Daily. Later it was found that Wang's
activities was financed by the government and soon after Wang left
Michigan and disappeared. (Anyone knows his whereabout now? Expose
him at SCC!) The Dean of the Engineering School at U. of Michigan,
Mr. Artkins, said special agent activities cannot be tolerated and
will be punished by the university during a meeting when Prof. Yee
raised the issue.
I was told that the Chinese Security Department (SD, An1 Quan2
Bu4) is trying hard to recruit agents when people are applying for
passports to go abroad. The following are the three cases I have
heard directly from the people involved:
1) A F-1 student in chemestry. The SD found him when he was
applying the passport. The SD wanted him to collect intellegence
information in the chemestry industry and also inform other Chinese
students' activities. The student refused cooperation but still got a
passport.
2) A J-1 student. The SD talked to him when they issued him a
passport. The SD said from their intellegence that the student can be
in danger in the U.S. Then the SD said they can offer help to him.
The student refused. The student eventually came to the U.S. but
never perceived any kind of threats like what the SD had said to him.
3) A F-1 student who was rather famous in acedemia. The SD asked
him to cooperate when he was applying for a passport. The SD wanted
him to inform those Chinese students who are active in democratic
movement overseas. The SD also wanted him to join China Spring to
sabotage the organization. He did not refuse it at that time because
he wanted the passport. Then the SD said to him: "Once you work for
us, you cannot defect. Otherwise you should know the consequences to
your wife, your relatives and even yourself." But he was not willing
to work for the SD from his heart. After two year preparation, he
defected during the meeting of China Spring in June. His name is Shao
Huaqiang, a chief editor of several books about Chinese modern
literature history.
I was told that quite a few of our fellow students had similar
experience with the SD. The SD often first appear as someone from
"the personnel department." Many students or scholars involved
refused cooperation. Yet someone dared not to refuse on the spot but
did not actually work for the SD later. But a minority are
voluntarily working as "special agents."
I believe currently the most dangerous agents to us are those
actively sabotage our protesting activities and threaten our fellow
students here and domestically. What should we do?
1) Encourage those agents to defect like Shao. Told them that
they can go to FBI asking for protection, and they do not have to be
publicized. Also told them that they may just simply refuse any
further cooperation.
2) Expose those who really work hard as the special agents.
Collect some hard evidence and then we can take some legal action.
Yet I will give them my WARNING here:
Be careful, your activities are watched by thousands of eyes
around you. You are not able to cover those dirty things forever.
You must know the history would punish your bosses Deng-Li and their
running dogs. It is just a matter of time. You are still young and
you may not want to ruin your whole life. The only smart thing you
can do is surrender now!
Xin Zhang at U. of Michigan
From polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cwjcc!cwsys2.cwru.Edu!jwang Sun Jul 16 14:21:13 PDT 1989
Article 20227 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cwjcc!cwsys2.cwru.Edu!jwang
>From: jwang@cwsys2.cwru.Edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: NSF
Message-ID: <401@cwjcc.CWRU.Edu>
Date: 6 Jul 89 05:25:30 GMT
Sender: news@cwjcc.CWRU.Edu
Reply-To: jwang@cwsys2.cwru.Edu ()
Organization: CWRU Department of Systems Engineering
Lines: 39
>From cwjcc!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!bloom-beacon!NSF.GOV!klaws Thu Jul 6 01:20:51 EDT 1989
Article 493 of comp.ai.digest:
Path: cwjcc!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!bloom-beacon!NSF.GOV!klaws
>From: klaws@NSF.GOV ("Kenneth I. Laws")
Newsgroups: comp.ai.digest
Subject: NSF Support of PRC Researchers
Message-ID: <8906200937.aa12747@b.nsf.gov>
Date: 20 Jun 89 13:37:21 GMT
Sender: daemon@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU
Organization: The Internet
Lines: 26
Approved: ailist@ai.ai.mit.edu
>From a memo by Erich Bloch, Director of NSF:
Recently, in response to events in the People's Republic of
China (PRC), President Bush offered a one-year delayed departure
to all PRC students, scholars and other visitors now in the
United States.
Many visitors from the PRC currently receive support through NSF
awards, particularly as graduate students and postdoctoral
researchers. Effective immediately, NSF will entertain requests
for supplements if the duration of the stay of a PRC student or
other researcher supported on an existing award is altered as the
result of the President's initiative.
For the remainder of FY 1989, reserve funds will be made
available to cover these supplements. Program reference code
9284, "PRC Scientist Supplements," should be cited.
Information regarding the opportunity for these supplements will
be provided to the university community by the Division of Grants
and Contracts [(202) 357-9496].
-- Ken Laws
(202) 357-9586
From polya!shelby!rutgers!columbia!cunixc!cunixd.cc.columbia.edu!seymour Sun Jul 16 14:21:42 PDT 1989
Article 20229 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!columbia!cunixc!cunixd.cc.columbia.edu!seymour
>From: seymour@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (James D. Seymour)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: The R E A L institutional affiliations of prisoners.
Message-ID: <1657@cunixc.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: 6 Jul 89 03:25:16 GMT
Sender: news@cunixc.cc.columbia.edu
Reply-To: seymour@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (James D. Seymour)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 113
AFFILIATIONS OF PEOPLE ARRESTED / SOUGHT.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Many of the people who have been arrested, or who are
evading arrest, have been associated with various research
institutes in Beijing. The following is an attempt to
clarify what these institutes are, how they relate to each
other and to the government, and who in them got into
trouble how. Of course, formal structures tell only a small
part of the story, but the following may still be of
interest. (For more details on the individuals, see articles
21845 and 21926.)
* = arrested. Others not known to have been arrested.
UA= Amnesty International Urgent Action case no. ___.
There are two kinds of research institutes, state and
private. Partial listings:
I. State = set up by State Council:
A. Research Institute for the Reform of the Economic
Structure (RIRES/Tigaisuo).
1. Chen Yizhi, director.*. UA:205.
2. Bai Nanfeng, member.*
B. Rural Development Research Institute. (Many
people here were very active, and publicly
critical of the government.)
1. Du Runsheng. (Originally reported arrested but
apparently not.).
2. Wen Tiejun. Hiding.
3. Lu Mai. In US.
C. Chinese Academy of Sciences. Some people here, such
as Xu Lianlin, used to be outspoken, but when the
student movement broke out, they kept a low
profile and presumably are not now in trouble.
D. The Chinese Academy of Social Sciences is another
story. Quite a few people here deeply involved.
Many important meetings of these people and
Gaozilian people met in CASS. A newsletter was put
out there.
1. Bao Zhunxin. Hiding.
2. Su Shaozhi. In US.
3. Yan Jiaqi. In France.
E. China International Trust & Investment Corp--CITIC.
(In the grey area between state and private. A
corporation est'd by state.)
1. International Institute (Guoji Suo).
a. Li Xianglu, a leader. Now in US.
b. Hua Di, a leader. Hiding?
c. Zhi Jiamin, of Beijing Young Economist. In
US.
II. Private.
1. Beijing Social and Economic Research Institute,
or SERI (Beijing Shehui jingji kexue
yanjiusuo).
Chen Zimin* (son bright) = head honcho.
UA:218.
People under Chen:
Liu Weihua.
Min Qi 474A2 533A12.
Chen Shaoping (small peace).
Organizations under Chen Zimin:
(1) Opinion Research Center of China--
ORCC.
(a) Bai Hua. Woman. Hiding.
(b) Liu Gang* UA:205.
(2) "Economic Weekly".
(a) Wang Juntao*.
(b) Gao Yu*.
(c) Fei Yuan. At the suggestion of
his colleagues, he kept out of
controversial activities.
2. Stone Corp. (head: Wang Rennan, in US)
a. Stone Research Inst--Sitong [four
throughs] yanjiusuo.
Cao Siyuan* UA:170
-=<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Jim Seymour a/k/a Sima Jin4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=-
| MCI Mail: 1640044 Internet: seymour@cunixc.cc.columbia.edu |
| Fax: 212-749-1497 Backroom BBS: china wasp |
| Disclaimer: I alone am responsible for posting of the |
| above, and (unless otherwise indicated) for the content. |
↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑~↑
From polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!bnr-public!schow Sun Jul 16 14:22:14 PDT 1989
Article 20231 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!bnr-public!schow
>From: schow@bnr-public.uucp (Stanley Chow)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: the analysis and impact of June-4 by comparing to Soviet
Message-ID: <704@bnr-fos.UUCP>
Date: 6 Jul 89 02:32:42 GMT
References: <2460@etive.ed.ac.uk>
Sender: news@bnr-fos.UUCP
Reply-To: schow%BNR.CA.bitnet@relay.cs.net (Stanley Chow)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Lines: 143
Summary:
Followup-To:
Keywords:
In article <2460@etive.ed.ac.uk> labguest@lfcs.ed.ac.uk (LFCSguest) writes:
>
>1.Gorbachev is unlike other communists reformers such as Krushchev and
>Deng Xiaoping. They [Krushev & Deng] enjoy a far greater concentration of political and
>executive power than the governments of pluralist societies. [...]
The "concentration of political and executive power" is not unique to
the current USSR government. Just about all of the "Ministerial" governments
modeled on the British government concentrate all of the power in the
hands of the Prime Minister.
The Supreme Soviet *now* has *more* power than most parliaments in
the confirmation of ministers. In a very real sense, the USSR has one
party with views more divergent than the two parties in the USA (or the
three parties in Canada).
Remember the purpose of the political "party" - it is exactly to concentrate
power. I recall that Ben Franklin himself used the party system to get
around the division of power in the USA constitution.
> [...] They receive their mandate from the Party,
>not from the public at large, and the Party considers that 1917 (or 1949)
>revolution has given it eternal power. [...]
This is exactly the same everywhere. Even in North America. Freedom is only
allowed until the "safty" of the country is threatened. For example, Canada
invoked the "War Powers Act" against the Quebec separatists in the seventies;
USA went to a bloody civil war when the southern state wanted to secede (or
separate) from the union; British government does not let the IRA have freedom
of expression.
>2.The generation of communist leaders, like Gorbachev and Zhao Jiyang,
>has not experienced the great suffering and fear. From the beginning of
>their political careers, they have been among the privileged; but they
>are better educated and have better administrative skills than their
>predecessors. They are the product of the systems, not the creators.
>They tend to prefer improvement and continuity rather than broad, bold
>structural reform.
>
I don't understand. I would definitly use "broad, bold structural reform"
to describe the political reforms introduced by Gorbachev. Even the
economic reforms by Deng & Zhao are bold structural reforms.
The "Tax Reform" of Reagan in USA and the "Thatcher revolution" in
Britian pale in comparison.
>3. The third kind of communists leaders believes sincerely that their
>systems are the best social models for cultural and material development.
>The systems had failed to fulfill their potentials because they had
>suffered bad leaders, not because there was anything wrong with the
>principles.
>
Why do you think this is unique to communists? There are people who
believe in all brands of political theories. Many people think monarchy
is the best system, others think a figure head president is best and
yet others think president as head-of-state is best. No matter how
many scandel and "constitutional crisis" occur, some people will still
believe in "their" system. Considering that most people grew up under
one system and knows only that one system, of course they think their
system is the best.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Part 3,
>
>1. Gorbachev and Zhao Ziyang understand the communist type of systems
>is not very responsive to attempts at reform, which had demonstrated
>in Czechoslovakia, Hungary, China and Soviet before. The bureaucratization
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
>of the political system and economic administration has reduced the personal
>power of the General Secretary.
>
You hit the nail on the head. It is not the party, but the bureaucrats that
slow down reform. In some sense, it is not even the bureacrats but the sheer
size of an entity that causes inertia. For example, even small reforms that
are advocated by a powerful leader (like Reagon's Tax reform) take a lot
of work to push through Congress and the civil servents. It does not even
take a country, any organizational entity shows inertia. When a company has
a new president with a new plan of action, it usually takes many years to
realize the plan.
>2. The way in which Gorbachev and Zhao reached the top means that they did
>not receive a clear mandate for reform. The Part elite certainly did not
↑↑↑↑↑
>promote him to the top in order that they should shake the foundations of
>the systems. The Party were prepared to tolerate modifications and
>adjustments, but not a revolution of real REFORM.
>
"The Party" is made up of people who think about their own future. If the
members of the party think it is good for *them*, reform can and will
happen. Therefore, I would modify your statement to be:
The Party will tolerate real reform *against* the party's interest.
The ruling party almost never give clear mandates for reform. But that
does not mean reform is impossible. Like everything else, there are people
for reform and there are people against reform. When the "for" groups is
in control, reform happens. The is the ways reform happens everywhere.
How do "reformers" get into power? One way is revolution. This is bloody
and rips civil rights to shreds. Economy is usually also destroied. Another
way is like FDR in the USA - when the people are desparate, they will try
anything. I think the current reforms in the communist countries are in
the FDR mode.
>3. But the logic of power and the challenge of the West scientific and
>technological revolution make it inevitable that more radical change
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑ ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
>must be implemented in the structure of Chinese and Soviet societies than
>just modifications and adjustments, as we mentioned in 2 above.
> ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
Sorry, I must have missed where you talked about this. I don't see how
the conclusion follows.
>4.Liberalization is not only desirable from a political point of view,
>it has great economic and international value. Freedom of the press and
>a better exchange of information between countries, a radical relaxation
>of arrangements for foreign travel, the abolition of the notorious articles
>of the criminal code which make the expression of political dissent a criminal
>offense would mean that Chinese and Soviet science and technology would
>develope more rapidly. There would be a healthy diversity in cultural life
>and a complemantary between individual and collective efforts in the economy.
>
Again, I am having trouble following your logic. How does freedom of expression
help develope science and technology? I think all the items mentioned in your
paragraph are all very important, but your justification seems confused.
Stanley Chow BitNet: schow@BNR.CA
BNR UUCP: ..!psuvax1!BNR.CA.bitnet!schow
(613) 763-2831 ..!utgpu!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!schow%bnr-public
Me? Represent other people? Don't make them laugh so hard.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!bnr-public!schow Sun Jul 16 14:23:23 PDT 1989
Article 20234 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!bnr-public!schow
>From: schow@bnr-public.uucp (Stanley Chow)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Use Computer Viruses to attack Chinese Bureaucracy
Message-ID: <710@bnr-fos.UUCP>
Date: 6 Jul 89 04:00:52 GMT
References: <745@mitisft.Convergent.COM> <758@mitisft.Convergent.COM>
Sender: news@bnr-fos.UUCP
Reply-To: schow%BNR.CA.bitnet@relay.cs.net (Stanley Chow)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Lines: 85
Summary:
Followup-To:
Keywords:
In article <745@mitisft.Convergent.COM> Greg Kemnitz writes:
[Suggestion to use computer virus.]
>Depending on the use of computers in China, a virus attack could bring the
>CCP bureaucracy to its knees, and would be impossible to track down.
In article <678@bnr-fos.UUCP> I write:
>
>In the process of attacking the bureaucracy, I would assume all computers
>will be infected. This also has the problem of grinding everything to a
>halt. Trains may collide. Chemical factories may spew off tons of toxic
>chemicals. Electrical system may collapse.
>
>Unless someone can write a virus that is intelligent enough to distingush
>between "police tracking data-base" and "critical life support" systems,
>it seems to me computer virus attacks are too dangerous.
In article <758@mitisft.Convergent.COM> Gregory Kemnitz writes:
>
>See below discussion about viruses. Computer viruses are Highly specialized
>animals, and IF DONE CORRECTLY, would be *guaranteed* to not cause the above
>problems. I doubt whether the computers used for managing trains, chemical
>plants, etc are the same types of computers as those used for maintenance
>of police databases. However, since this is a danger, viruses must be
>EXTENSIVELY tested and debugged. The viruses I have in mind would be no
>more "malicious" than the phone flooding used to jam the CCP's informer
>hotlines. I suppose this was not particularly clear from my original
>posting.
>
>I think that this is an easier problem than it seems at first glance. See
>below.
Your understanding of how to write a virus clearly differs from my
understanding. It is NOT POSSIBLE to gurantee anything. There are many
people who have followed your ideas and realease "nice" viruses whose
purpose is to remove other viruses. Everyone single one of these "nice"
viruses cause damage. You may want to read the discussions in comp.virus
and comp.risks to see some reality.
You "doubt" the same types of computers are used for critical systems as
for police work. You are willing to *gurantee* correct operation of the
virus based on your "doubt"? Even if you have total knowledge of the whole
computer system, it is still extermely difficult to write "guranteed correct"
viruses. For most people, even given total access, writing merely correct
programs are difficult at best.
>
>According to an AT&T study, there are about 100 passwords that describe
>over fifty percent (numbers not exact) of the passwords used. In this
>vein, a virus COULD be written which attacks only police counterrevolutionary
>databases, by looking for names such as "counterrevolutionary", "hooligan",
>etc. There must be a limited number of such names used for this purpose.
>I know next to nothing about Chinese computing, but I expect that people give
>their databases descriptive names there just as they do here.
>
Please note that guesing a password merely gives a virus the *ability* to
do damage. If you are suggesting a virus can just look for files with
the "wrong" names to attack, I suggest you take a look at any database
system and try to find the meaningfull names. It is extremely difficult
to find the "real" (or logical) names of the data. In any case, such a
virus would be exceedingly easy to circumvent.
>A computer virus is not a bomb. A well-written virus does EXACTLY what was
>intended, like any other computer program (note that such a virus must be
>EXTENSIVELY tested to make sure that it does not cause unintended destruction).
>I suppose I should have put these cavaets into my original posting, but it was
>late and the idea occured to me after reading about the databases used by the
>CCP to keep track of activists in Computerworld.
No computer program *ever* does what is *intended*. All computer programs do
what is *programmed*. The reason why programs have bugs is that no programmer
can foresee all the possible problems. Virus writing is much more difficult
than normal since the environment is hostile and the virus must be hidden
while the H/W and S/W combination is unknown and subject to change. Virus as
suggested by you is even more difficult since it must be able to distingush
between the "good" and "bad" systems.
Stanley Chow BitNet: schow@BNR.CA
BNR UUCP: ..!psuvax1!BNR.CA.bitnet!schow
(613) 763-2831 ..!utgpu!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!schow%bnr-public
Me? Represent other people? Don't make them laugh so hard.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!bnr-public!schow Sun Jul 16 14:23:54 PDT 1989
Article 20235 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!bnr-public!schow
>From: schow@bnr-public.uucp (Stanley Chow)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: returning to PRC may be dangerous Re: Isn't it shameful!
Message-ID: <711@bnr-fos.UUCP>
Date: 6 Jul 89 04:18:58 GMT
References: <687@bnr-fos.UUCP> <15095@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Sender: news@bnr-fos.UUCP
Reply-To: schow%BNR.CA.bitnet@relay.cs.net (Stanley Chow)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Lines: 64
Summary:
Followup-To:
Keywords:
In article <15095@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> timlee@ernie.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Timothy J. Lee) writes:
>In article <687@bnr-fos.UUCP> schow%BNR.CA.bitnet@relay.cs.net (Stanley Chow) writes:
>
>|Please note that I am not suggesting that students "must return". I am not
>|even "urging" students to return. I merely point out that staying in USA,
>|Canada (or wherever) is tantament to giving up on China. This is obviousely
>|a decision to be make by each individual, but it should be make consciously.
>
>My point was that the CCP has already made the decision.
I maintain the decision must be made by each individual. The current climate
in China makes it extermely dangerous for students to return. This does not
the decision has been made. It does mean that it requires greater courage
and conviction to return.
You are making the assumsion that living has priority above all else. This
is clearly false, as history has amply demonstrated.
>|
>|I do not like *anyone* being killed, for whatever reason. But reality is still
>|reality. The current reality is that reforming a country like China requires
>|"the best and brightest" to devote themselves. I realize that poses danger to
>|them, but that is why each person must make his/her own choice. It really boils
>|down to:
>| Either give up on China and (possibly) live in comfort in the west
>| or, try to reform China at great secrafies (and possibly some danger).
>
>No, the choices are:
>
>1. remain outside of the PRC. This does not require one to give up
>on China.
>
It depends on how one remains outside of PRC. If one were to claim refugee
status, become a citizen, etc. I would say he/she has essentially given up.
In fact, at least in the USA, acquiring citizen requires one to renounce one's
former citizenship.
On the other hand, to remain outside of PRC but working for reform and
(hoping) to go back and work towards a better China is an entirely reasonable
stratagy to follow.
I suppose the difference is whether one puts down "roots" in the host country.
>2. go back to the PRC to certain death. Note that the CCP controlled
>media will do its best to prevent the creation of martyrs.
>
I have a question for you. How to *you* think changes in China will happen
if everyone is outside? How will "the CCP controlled media" be counteracted?
>
>Given the very strong feeling among PRC citizens in the USA that the
>CCP sucks, the CCP is likely to hold any returning student under
>suspicion of being a counterrevolutionary.
Why do you think a major reform or a revolution are be conducted
safely with everyone safe at home?
Stanley Chow BitNet: schow@BNR.CA
BNR UUCP: ..!psuvax1!BNR.CA.bitnet!schow
(613) 763-2831 ..!utgpu!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!schow%bnr-public
Me? Represent other people? Don't make them laugh so hard.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!bnr-public!schow Sun Jul 16 14:25:16 PDT 1989
Article 20239 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!bnr-public!schow
>From: schow@bnr-public.uucp (Stanley Chow)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: should we support Tibet Independence?
Message-ID: <712@bnr-fos.UUCP>
Date: 6 Jul 89 04:43:06 GMT
References: <3641@cps3xx.UUCP> <2538@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Sender: news@bnr-fos.UUCP
Reply-To: schow%BNR.CA.bitnet@relay.cs.net (Stanley Chow)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Lines: 48
Summary:
Followup-To:
Keywords:
In article <2538@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu> SHENF@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Zhiyong Shen) writes:
>What sy said is largely true, unfortunately. As long as many Chinese have
>this attitude, we are going to be slaves of CCP (or something as cruel) for a
>long long time to come.
>
Your conclusion is incorrect because your reasoning is wrong. Your are
confusing the concept of "democracy". Democracy is not inherently "nicer"
to minority groups. In fact, democracy, where majority rules, is extrememly
dangerous to minority groups. Most countries try to build in strong safeguards
for the rights of minorities, but there are still many problem cases.
>The reason is actually a simple one -- CCP dictatorship is far superior to
>any democratic system in retaining an unwilling Tibet. The only thing that
>is keeping Tibetans under control is the brutality that shocked everyone
>with human conscience.
Instead of getting into a long discussion of the theory and pratice of
human rights and democracy, I will merely point out some counter-examples to
your thesis. The party in power does not seems to make much difference in
the brutality. E.g., South Africa, Panama, Iran.
> A democratic China is not likely to continue this
>ghastly tradition. A democractic China by definition would not use
>Lhasa- or Beijing-style massacres to prevent "splitting" and many other parts
>would break away.
Again, you ascribe to much magical power to democracy. My favorite example
for this is the American Civil war. Lincoln was certainly willing to spill
a lot of blood to prevent a Lhasa-style split.
>The only period in which Chinese culture really blossomed was call Warring
>States in which there was no gigantic central state machine. Without this
>horrible monster established by our First Emperor, nobody could have massed
>so many troops to crush the entire city of Beijing.
>
How about all the other brutality in the other parts of the world? Did
the First Emperor allow Hitler to do his massacre? Did the Spanish need
the First Emperor do wipe out the Northa American native indians?
Stanley Chow BitNet: schow@BNR.CA
BNR UUCP: ..!psuvax1!BNR.CA.bitnet!schow
(613) 763-2831 ..!utgpu!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!schow%bnr-public
Me? Represent other people? Don't make them laugh so hard.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!AOLIN.TELEMEMO.AU!ADMIN Sun Jul 16 14:26:28 PDT 1989
Article 20243 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!AOLIN.TELEMEMO.AU!ADMIN
>From: ADMIN@AOLIN.TELEMEMO.AU
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Larsen & Draper proposal of a high-tech conference on Democracy
Message-ID: <SJIJ-1865-2298.10>
Date: 6 Jul 89 17:54:00 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 41
I would like to take the space on the China bulletin and the
soc.culture.china newsgroup to comment on Craig Larson and John Draper's
proposal of Chinese students using US Sprint's Meeting Channel
Teleconferecing Network for a 7 site or more hook up of a satellite
videoconference on democracy.
I am not very knowlegeable about the technical side, bandwidth, encrypton
etc. of this kind of meetings, but I have taken part in such meetings
before. There were four things which struck me as terribly important: the
reason for using the technology, the planning, the conduct, and the costs.
The dates suggested were July 19, 20 and 21 (why those dates?), and there
was an intriguing statement by John: "I am certain that the money is
available to pay US Sprint". I don't know where the money will come from,
and what if I were to organise some students to troop into a
videoconferencing studio in Brisbane to take part, how much do I have to
collect from the students to pay the local PTT and may be US Sprint?
I can think of a good use of this means for part of the Manitoba
conference IF there is enough forward planning to identify regional node
co-ordinators, who in turn need time to get people to take part. There is
the time zone factor to be considered. Then there must also be an agreed
agenda sent out before hand, so that the discussion can move swiftly
without wasting precious connection time.
I am all for technology, and I appreciate John and Craig's enthusiasm, but
please give the students more time to get organised first. So far,
electronc mail, a easy and cheap medium, is serving us all very nicely, so
let us not rush into high tech yet. Let us save up this "goodie" for
future conferences. I would appreciate being sent by John further details
about Sprint's services.
We have heard of the very exciting teleport development quite some time
back but have not got any documentation about it.
Admin/China
(In real life:
Angela Castro
Deakin University,
Geelong, Victoria 3217,
Australia.)
From polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!AOLIN.TELEMEMO.AU!ADMIN Sun Jul 16 14:27:12 PDT 1989
Article 20246 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!AOLIN.TELEMEMO.AU!ADMIN
>From: ADMIN@AOLIN.TELEMEMO.AU
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: The China bulletin on AOLIN
Message-ID: <SJIJ-1865-2322.10>
Date: 6 Jul 89 18:06:00 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 43
Dear Cynthia Fish,
In your July 3 letter, you wrote:
" could you please send me more information on the china
bulletin board and any other networks i can use to get
to foreign countries. i am assistant director for international
students, office of admissions, baruch college of the city
university of new york. my bit address is: baiso01@bbadmin.
i am especially interested in the china bulletin board as we
have many chinese students at baruch college."
Well, China is a bulletin board that can only be read by people who could
dial in to AOLIN in Australia using a packet-switched service such as
Telenet; our X121 adddress is 0505 236620000. We are also obliged to
charge you a connection and usage fee as our network is built on a
commercial service called Keylink/Telememo, which is idential to the
Telemail system in the US. There is no charge however to you if you simply
want to send messages to our bulletin by staying where you are, it is only
us who have to pay for receiving your message. If this sounds
discouraging, it is not meant to be, I am simply stating a fact of life of
electronic messaging downunder.
Most of messages on our bulletin are in fact a selection of the messages
on china-net and soc.culture.china, with only a small no of contributions
from a few academics and a couple of students. We do not have a critical
mass of Chinese students like you have in N.America. The majority of our
ethnically Chinese students are from Malaysia, Hong Kong and Singrapore,
and they seldom come into contact with Chinese students from the People's
Republic of China, who are more likely to be studying short language
courses at commercial colleges which are excluded from academic networks
here. The Chinese communities in the capital cities of Australia also
seldom mix with Chinese student bodies (there are few organised ones any
way). I hope to forward those few contributions to soc.culure.china soon,
so you may want to read them there.
You mention that you want to get to more networks, well, there is Harnet
in Hong Kong, and one of the computing science centre staff in fact
frequently report on china-net. His address is hkucs!kwchan@uunet.uu.net.
I hope that the above has been useful.
Siincerely, Admin/China (alias Angela Castro)
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!CUCEVX.CIVIL.COLUMBIA.EDU!CUPLVX::DODD Sun Jul 16 14:27:36 PDT 1989
Article 20248 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!CUCEVX.CIVIL.COLUMBIA.EDU!"CUPLVX::DODD"
>From: "CUPLVX::DODD"@CUCEVX.CIVIL.COLUMBIA.EDU
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Congressional bills
Message-ID: <890706001917.00001645031@cucevx.civil.columbia.edu>
Date: 6 Jul 89 04:19:17 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 36
Dear Netters,
Good news! A charitable organization of Chinese Americans: " The National
Committee for Supporting Chinese Students and Scholars" is willing to support
those congressional bills favorable for us Chinese student in the U.S. They
are going to send letters to all the congressmen, senators and some important
politicians. They are also going to persuade some key Chinese Americans
like Chen Xian-Mei (ping Yin, I don't know her English name, sorry) to lobby
for the students. But first of all, they need our help. They need evidences
and our voice. they hope that Chinese students in each school can write
them a letter expressing our hatred for the current Chinese government and
deep concern for our own safety upon returning to our own country. Please
send them anything you think is appropriate including any related informations
such as which senator has what opinion towards the bills. this informations
can be from newspapers, computer networks like SCC or even personal
communications. Please send or fax your letter and/or information as soon
as possible. Thank you.
Also, for those who are in the New York City area, there is going to be
a meeting between some student representatives and the organization to discuss
what needs to be done and how to have it done. Please discuss the matter
with your fellow schoolmates and send some representatives to attend the
meeting. The meeting is to be held on this Friday (Jul.7) at 2pm in one
of their offices.
Their address is:
The National Committee for Supporting the Chinese Students and Scholars
210-212 Canal St., RM. 503,
New York, NY 10013
Tel. (212)732-0272, Fax: (212)524-0745
Please Write letters, collect informations and send ASAP.
Thanks.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!ef Sun Jul 16 14:27:56 PDT 1989
Article 20249 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!ef
>From: ef@cup.portal.com (Enrico Maria Ferrari)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Italian journalist searches this news:
Message-ID: <20176@cup.portal.com>
Date: 6 Jul 89 12:48:42 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 16
Dear friends,
i'm an italian journalist collaborator, my name is Enrico Ferrari,
living in Rome, Via Giuseppe Valmarana 43, Italy
zip code 00139, everyone can check my honesty.
I'd like news for an important article:
1) Is there still a link between China and the world via usenet?
2) How can i find on usenet msgs caming from China? Wich are the chinese addre
3) Are there any persons still in direct contact with chienese people?
Do they write on usenet?
4) How can i be sure the messagges on USenet are REAL and not jokes or worst?
Anyone who can contact me, especially who is in contact with China please
write me here or to my mailbox (ef@cup.portal.com) or at home.
Thank you very much, i support freedom.
enrico ferrari
via giuseppe valmarana 43
00139 Roma
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ernie.Berkeley.EDU!tedrick Sun Jul 16 14:28:16 PDT 1989
Article 20250 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ernie.Berkeley.EDU!tedrick
>From: tedrick@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Tedrick)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: How to put Scott Horne in KILL file
Message-ID: <29972@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>
Date: 6 Jul 89 14:21:02 GMT
Sender: usenet@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 27
->Can someone tell me how to put Scott Horne into my kill file?
To edit the local KILL file, we start by hitting the control-k
key while reading this news group.
To delete (junk) articles posted under a given user ID you put
the user ID inside slashes, followed by h:j
Example:
/Scott@/h:j
That searches the headers ("h") for the string "Scott@" and
junks ("j") any article with that character string in the
header.
Since Scott uses fake IDs to torment us even further, you may
have to put each new fake ID he creates in the KILL file. This
can be very time consuming.
Can someone tell me how to put Scott Horne in my mail reject
list? He keeps sending me mail even though I asked him to stop,
and I don't read any mail with his name in the header. What a pest.
**************************************************************
"All power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party
must control the guns." -Chairman Mao
From polya!shelby!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!vax1.cc.lehigh.edu!vlsi3b15!lehi3b15!lafcol!mccandld Sun Jul 16 14:28:27 PDT 1989
Article 20251 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!vax1.cc.lehigh.edu!vlsi3b15!lehi3b15!lafcol!mccandld
>From: mccandld@lafcol.UUCP (Fortunato)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: How to fake IDs?
Summary: what is everyone's problem?
Message-ID: <1319@lafcol.UUCP>
Date: 6 Jul 89 12:51:25 GMT
References: <8907051853.AA21291@en.ecn.purdue.edu>
Organization: Fields of flowers in a gravity flux
Lines: 27
In article <8907051853.AA21291@en.ecn.purdue.edu>, jzhang@EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU (Ji Zhang) writes:
> In <65427@yale-celray.yale.UUCP> Scott-Horne writes:
>
> ...
> Some usual trash delete.
> ...
>
> The purpose of faking ID is to protect ourselves from CCP.
> Can you not see the point???? Can you ever make something suggestive???
>
> Can someone tell me how to put Scott Horne into my kill file?
This is really getting out of hand. I certainly don't agree with
lots of Scott's comments, but his last posting did bring up some good
points: he wasn't just trying to be contrary. I find this blackballing
of people's ideas based on your personal dislike/like for some of their
other comments totally immature and irrelevant to this net. You are
JUST as bad as you think him to be when you allow intelligent
communication to dissolve into pointless bickering and loathing. What
is the point? Scott's "obnoxious" comments took place weeks ago, and so
now you ignore EVERYTHING he says? No one is PERFECTLY wrong or TOTALLY
bad. Broaden your mind and quit jumping on the bandwagon with every
other "Scott Horne" hater, just because its the fashionable thing to do.
You allow the whole China cause to be tainted through this stupid
hating.
-David
From polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!yale!Horne-Scott Sun Jul 16 14:28:46 PDT 1989
Article 20252 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!yale!Horne-Scott
>From: Horne-Scott@cs.yale.edu (Scott Horne)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: How to fake IDs?
Message-ID: <65557@yale-celray.yale.UUCP>
Date: 6 Jul 89 14:07:36 GMT
References: <8907051853.AA21291@en.ecn.purdue.edu>
Sender: root@yale.UUCP
Reply-To: Horne-Scott@cs.yale.edu (Scott Horne)
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept, New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Lines: 42
In-reply-to: jzhang@EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU (Ji Zhang)
In article <8907051853.AA21291@en.ecn.purdue.edu>, jzhang@EN (Ji Zhang) writes:
> In <65427@yale-celray.yale.UUCP> Scott-Horne writes:
>
> ...
> Some usual trash delete.
?????
> ...
>
> The purpose of faking ID is to protect ourselves from CCP.
> Can you not see the point???? Can you ever make something suggestive???
Whatever the ``point'' may be, it's not so simple. Ask how many times an
innocent netter like Ning Wang, Kong P Chen, me, _et al._, has been the victim
of fake postings. Ask my postmaster how many people have forged mail from
Yale--even from the postmaster's account.
To protect your IDs, you can have someone else post your articles. I've been
known to do this quite often (and am of course still willing to do it). That
way, someone is responsible for slanderous statements.
We at Yale broke a case of mail forgery not long ago, as I said on SCC at the
time. It turned out that the person responsible had also been one of the
major SCC forgers (malicious ones) for almost a year. We are presently
investigating another such case.
> In fact, it is not worth the effort to fake ID in order to snare
> Scott Horne.
Enough think otherwise. I've been the victim of several anonymous attacks.
> Can someone tell me how to put Scott Horne into my kill file?
You've seen how. Such things have been posted. So why ask this publicly?
To _liang4xiang4_?
--Scott
Scott Horne Hacker-in-Chief, Yale CS Dept Facility
horne@cs.Yale.edu ...!{harvard,cmcl2,decvax}!yale!horne
Home: 203 789-0877 SnailMail: Box 7196 Yale Station, New Haven, CT 06520
Work: 203 432-6428 Summer residence: 175 Dwight St, New Haven, CT
Dare I speak for the amorphous gallimaufry of intellectual thought called Yale?
From polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!bionet!ames!ncar!umigw!jherr Sun Jul 16 14:29:31 PDT 1989
Article 20254 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!bionet!ames!ncar!umigw!jherr
>From: jherr@umigw.MIAMI.EDU (jack herrington)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Lobby info
Keywords: legislation
Message-ID: <417@umigw.MIAMI.EDU>
Date: 6 Jul 89 14:51:57 GMT
Distribution: na
Lines: 551
hinese Students in America.
>From. Ernest Y.C. Lee, Ph.D. Professor of Biochemistry
Date. 5 July 1989
I am a Chinese American faculty member, and I have been
trying to find a way to help our Chinese students here. What I am
sending you is an effort to help the students in the smaller places to
take some positive actions. You may use the material that follows at
your own discretion and risk.
I have been active in lobbying for support of legislation to
allow
the students to remain in this country. It will not be easy. It is
important for you to gain the support of your faculty advisors, and to
find supporters who will lobby your local lawmakers. I know that
students in the major centers are well informed and organized.
However, it is important, even if there are only 10 Chinese students in
a small university, to have faculty from that school write to their
congressmen and senators.
You can make your own arguments from your own perspective.
I have written a position paper you can use on why such legislation is
necessary; it focuses less on the humanitarian aspect than on political
and practical reasons, and I think these arguments are important. A
copy is attached for your use (Item 1). I attach a copy of a sample of
an individual letter your faculty can use as a model if they wish to
(Item 2). I also have attached a sample of a statement with which to
collect signatures for a petition drive (Item 3).
I have made a handout you can use for fund-raising. This is
simply a piece of regular paper xeroxed on both sides and folded. It
contains includes a written tribute to the fallen of Tienanmen Square
on the inside (Item 4), some graphics on the front and a request for
support on the back. You should design your own. People will want to
know what they are giving money for. You must be ready to give
clear answers, and you should be very specific.
I have prepared a draft charter for a student organization (Item
5). It may be helpful to you (consult a book called "Roberts Rules of
Order" if you need help in setting up a charter). This may seem
formal but it is important for the future. Your student organization
must have goals, and it must have rules to ensure that it always
functions in a democratic and orderly manner. It is meant more for
smaller groups of students as I know those of you in major centers are
already well organized. In drawing it up I have drawn it as simply a
means for setting up any student organization, with the basic aims
such a campus organization should have. It is not set up as an action
group for a pro-democracy movement. I incorporated into the
charter an intent to communicate with, and to eventually be a part of
a national organization. For most students, especially those in the
Universities where the number of Chinese students is small, I feel
that it is more important for them to form a local student organization
first, rather than one directed to the aims of a national organization.
This will help to identify local leaders and develop a support base.
If I can be of any further help, messages can be sent to me or Mr Wu
by SCC or by fax (305-324 5665) or to P.O. Box 016129, Miami, FL
33101
ITEM 1 (Position paper on legislation)
Why We Must Enact Legislation to Allow Visiting Students and
Scholars from China to Remain in the U.S
Ernest Y.C. Lee, Professor of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology
University of Miami School of Medicine, Miami, FL
July 4 1989
In the wake of the pro-democracy demonstrations in Beijing,
China, which after a display of unprecedented, unexpected and utterly
courageous support from the general populace and its vicious
suppression by the Chinese government, there is growing debate on
whether legislation should be enacted to permit those Chinese
students and scholars currently in the US to remain as permanent
residents should they so desire.
This is a complex issue which must be considered, beyond the
compassionate and humanitarian need to shelter these individuals
from reprisals, in terms of the broader impact of such legislation on
the future of the pro-democracy movement in China, on the message it
sends to the Chinese People and their government, on its impact on
technology transfer to China, and on its impact on American science
and technology research.
These people represent the second largest group of foreign
students and scholars in the U.S., numbering close to 40,000 by some
estimates. While I do not have a breakdown of the distribution of
these individuals, judging by our own experience here it would be fair
to say that the bulk of these individuals are postgraduate students
and researchers concentrated in areas of technology and science. It
is important to appreciate how broadly the movement was supported
by the major universities in China; those students here cannot be
regarded as an ideologically separate group of people. They
identified with, and supported this movement, and but for being in
this country many of them would have been part of the
demonstrations in China. Almost to a man, they have openly and
vigorously demonstrated in our cities. For them, the disillusionment,
and the disappointment and anger is crushing. They are now
mobilizing, and on many campuses are establishing independent
student organizations, with the goal of linking to form a central
organization. Without a doubt, the pro-democracy movement of the
Chinese university students will remain active and alive in this
country, if we permit them to stay.
A key question that may be asked is to what extent are these
individuals likely to be exposed to reprisal on their return ? This is
an
unknown at this point but the recent actions and intentions of the
government can leave little doubt that any activists will be punished
on their return. Almost all of them have taken part in some form of
demonstration here. It is widely believed among the students that the
Chinese Embassy monitors their activities by the use of willing or
unwilling local agents. The existence of such activities could have
direct bearing on the need to protect these students, or on their
ability
to organize and support the pro-democracy movement while they are
here in this country.
What effect has the massacre of Tienanmen Square had on
these young idealistic students, who grew up in a more permissive
environment in China following the Cultural Revolution, and who have
quietly adapted to life in the U.S. ? From my contact with them the
results have been massively truamatic. The effect on them is one
parallel to that of many Western observers, namely, the realization
that the regime as a totalitarian system is incompatible to the type of
individual freedoms that are a given of existence in democratic
country. They have become exiles. Ironically, while none of the
student demonstrators considered themselves counter-revolutionaries,
the current regime in China has created millions of counter-
revolutionaries. We need to also consider the long term future. Many
of China's current leaders were trained in Russia. If China ever
changes, and it will and must, it is likely that these future leaders
may
include at all levels individuals who are trained and who may have
sojourned in the United States.
Foreign and scholars on J-1 visas generally need to meet a 2
year foreign residency requirement before they can apply for
permanent residency here, unless they receive a waiver. This waiver
is very, very rarely granted in the case of Chinese nationals
particularly when the process also requires a waiver from the state
authorities of the native country. Yes, there are mechanisms
whereby individuals can stay under the current laws but as long as it
is the State authorities of China who must give their blessing these
mechanisms are effectively meaningless.
Foreign graduate students and researchers, not only those from
China, comprise a significant skilled labor force in research in the
sciences in the United States. Students from China are a common
sight in many graduate departments in the sciences, including
molecular biology and other high technology areas. Thus there
should be no mistake about their contribution to basic research in this
country. These are highly trained people working in our research
universities and research institutions, often at the cutting edge of
U.S.
technologies. To put it another way, should the Chinese government
effect the immediate recall of every one of these people, the
dislocation to basic research in the American Universities, including
areas of high technology, would be palpable. It is a two-way street,
where they gain training and education as well as provide a skilled
labor force. We need to re-consider also the general economics of the
situation. It take several years to train someone to the level where
they can perform research productively. At this time, does it really
make sense to ship all of these trained individuals home ? Indeed, a
number of research leaders in the high energy physics area have
protested the current restrictions on their ability to retain these
researchers. For many of the these students, their promise as
scientists will be blunted since there are less than a handful of
institutions which can support research at a level comparable to that
in the US. The argument that this will constitute a brain drain is
really one that is outdated. In research, as in the economic arena, we
are entering the age of free global interchange. We are really talking
about a brain drain, but in the reverse sense. These are the brains
that we have trained, in facilities that we have paid for, in
institutions
that we have developed and it no longer makes sense to send all of
them on a one way street home.
The training of these students represents a significant if
indirect
form of aid to China. Very few of the Chinese scholars are supported to
any extent by their government. Most graduate students and visiting
scholars are supported by the graduate programs of their departments
or by the research grants of their mentors (this being a normal
practice in scientific research). I was once involved, several years
ago, in calculating the cost of the training of a graduate student in
the
basic biomedical sciences. If one includes the stipend, the tuition
which is usually waived, the costs of consumable supplies and the
overhead, faculty salaries etc., the figure easily reaches an estimate
of
$300,000 per student over four years. In other words, this would be
the minimal estimate of the cost of duplicating their education,
without consideration of the cost of the building and equipment base.
The cost of training 10,000 graduate students is 3 billion dollars. The
facts are that these individuals represent 1) a very significant
investment on the part of the U.S. and 2) a major pipeline for
technology transfer.
The current dilemma of the Administration is relevant to this
issue, as it considers the need to act as the representative of the
American people in expressing our outrage and anger at the events of
Tienanmen square, and the need as a nation, to maintain relationships
with China. While many Americans are disappointed at the feebleness
of our response to the the Chinese Government, it must be even more
disheartening to the Chinese populace who went out on the streets. As
we will point out below, exercising the option to provide refuge for the
Chinese students and scholars in this country will serve many of this
country's purposes.
With this background, I believe it is humanitarian, wise,
pragmatic and in the interests of the American and Chinese people to
enact legislation which would provide the Chinese students and
scholars presently in this country the option of becoming permanent
residents and thus prevent their enforced return.
1. Passage of such legislation will be a strong statement of
support
to the the intellectuals and students of China. We must open our doors
to those of their brethren here, recognizing that they are refugees.
The way we treat the students and scholars here will be known
throughout China. While there may be administrative and alternate
ways to achieve this aim, it would be shameful to waste such an
opportunity for a strong and symbolic gesture of support. It would
be tragic, in the long term, to leave the Chinese people the perception
that the society whose traditions of freedom they wished to emulate,
and for whom many sacrificed their lives and their futures, wants
only to continue business as usual. To the Chinese government, we
send an effective message of our disapproval of their repression of
the university students and scholars for their demonstrations; if this
repression continues, those scholars in this country will have other
options than an enforced return. The deeper their repression, the
fewer will be those who return.
2. Such legislation will be a significant sanction in terms of
technology transfer. The return of these individuals is a major route
for high technology transfer from the U.S. to China. Any form of
strong economic sanctions would hurt the Chinese people, as well as
our own business interests, and in the light of the crucial importance
of the development of free economy with political freedoms already
evident in China, have created a dilemma for our lawmakers.
Legislation providing refuge to the Chinese students in this country
would send a loud and clear message which would not harm any
individuals. This type of legislation would be a real and
significant sanction in terms of technology transfer, and it would have
an economic edge. Its implementation would be in the interests of the
American people and it is a positive action.
3. The creation of an emigre base of Chinese intellectuals would
be a significant threat and sanction to the hard-liners in the Chinese
regime; it will make the isolation and total repression of the Chinese
intellectual class in China impossible to maintain. For the long-term,
we cannot afford, given the massive convulsions caused by the recent
demonstrations, to overlook the importance of the Universities and
intellectual class in China. While the legislation would affect,
relatively speaking, only a small number of people, it would have an
impact on an entire class of people in China on whose convictions the
future of China may rest, if it is to become a free nation.
These arguments make it clear that this legislation would fulfil
many multiple objectives. It is relatively speaking a small gesture,
but one which will have major impact, now and in the future, for U.S.-
China relationships.
Item 2
Sample letter which your faculty can use as a guide to drafting their
own letters.
Dear :
I am writing to urge your support for legislation which would
allow the Chinese students to stay in this country. As a faculty
member I strongly support legislative action to help them. I have
deep concerns that these individuals will be ignored as the
Administration reaches some degree of normalization of relationships
with the government of China. Beside the deep humanitarian
convictions that such legislation is necessary and in keeping with the
American spirit I believe there are other cogent and pragmatic
arguments for the passage of such legislation which I would like to
share with you, although you may already be aware of them. These
are as follows:
1. The way we treat the students and scholars here will be known
throughout China. Passage of legislation to prevent the enforced
return of the Chinese students and scholars here will send a clear
unambiguous message of support. It would be tragic, in the long
term, to leave the Chinese people the perception that the society
whose traditions of freedom they wished to emulate, and for whom
many sacrificed their lives and their futures, would stand by silently.
To the Chinese government, we send an effective message of our
disapproval of their repression of the university students and scholars
for their demonstrations; if this repression continues, those scholars
in this country will have other options than an enforced return.
2. The return of these individuals is a major route for high
technology transfer from the U.S. to China. This type of legislation
would be a real and significant sanction in terms of technology
transfer; its implementation would be in the interests of the American
people and it is a positive action. There is a broad sense of feeling
that some stronger sanctions be taken against the Chinese
government, but it is feeling mixed with frustration. Almost any type
of economic sanction would hurt the Chinese people, as well as our
own business interests, and would not be favored by the
Administration, which needs and should maintain relations with
China. Legislation providing the Chinese students in this country the
option of permanent resident status would send a loud and clear
message which would not harm any individuals. These are highly
trained people working in our research universities and research
institutions, often at the cutting edge of U.S. technologies. They
are
by and large a highly selected and dedicated group of people; to put it
another way, should the Chinese government effect the immediate
recall of every one of these people, the dislocation to basic research
in
the American Universities, including areas of high technology, would
be palpable. We should also remember that the training of these
individuals, while they make a real contribution research productivity
here, also represent a very large investment in terms of real dollars
on the part of the U.S.
3. It may be argued that only a few of the active leaders here in
this country actually face serious reprisal, and that it is in the best
interests of all if most of these people are returned to their country.
Almost all of them have taken part in some form of demonstration
here. It is widely believed among the students, correctly or
incorrectly, that the Chinese Embassy monitors their activities.
Such information could have direct bearing on the need to protect
these students. Given the current directions of the Chinese
government, there can be little doubt in they will continue to act with
utter ruthlessness.
Yours sincerely,
ITEM 3
Sample for signature drive for university faculty signatures:
These can be faxed to your local legislators with a covering letter.
(look in front pages of your phonebook)
We, the undersigned, urge your support for legislation which would
allow the Chinese students and scholars the option of remaining as
permanent residents in this country. Such legislation would not only
be humanitarian and in keeping with our country's role as the refuge
and stronghold of democracy and would send a loud and clear
message of our anger at the repression of the student and scholars in
China. Such legislation would also have several pragmatic goals. It
would send a message of support to those brave individuals who
demonstrated for freedom but would also serve as significant sanction
against technology transfer to China. We feel it important that these
students, for whom we serve as teachers and role models, are not
forced to return if they do not wish to do so.
Name (print) Signature Position.
ITEM 4
To Those Who Fell In Tienanmen Square
Who, day after day, on seeing those earnest faces
on the global electronic stage
on hearing their young voices appealing for democratic
freedoms
could not help but be touched
by their innocence, their sincerity, and their naivete ?
Who, on watching these young people
erect a "Goddess of Democracy" of styrofoam and plaster
and vow
"we are ready to die for freedom",
could not but smile and feel a stirring of the spirit ?
Who, on watching the people of Beijing massing
to turn aside and dissuade the soldiers
again and again
did not but hope that perhaps, after all
a new world was dawning ?
But no, instead we wept
as Teinanmen Square became the
Red Square of the Martyrs
stained forever by the blood and
the crushed bodies of young men and women
The world has witnessed the atrocities
of a tyranny that denies the individual spirit -
Li Peng and Deng Xiao Ping
your names will be cursed
for a hundred generations
We, the sons and daughters of China
and the people of the world
will never forgive the massacre of the flower of China's youth
on the killing fields of Tienanmen Square
and the boulevards of Beijing
We grieve today for the loss of the aspirations
of yet another generation
but it is not over
We salute you, students and citizens of Beijing,
whose courage and spirit are the harbingers
of the China of Tomorrow
as we witness the awakening of the sleeping dragon
the people of China whose hunger for freedom
will no longer wait
You who fell in Tienanmen Square
your blood will not have been shed in vain
for the spirit of man will not be denied
your lives now belong not only to China
but to all the world
Rest In Peace
Li Yi Zhung, on the Eighth Day of the Month of June in the Year 1989
(Written by a Chinese-American professor at the University of Miami.)
ITEM 5
The following is a draft charter for the proposed formation of a
Chinese student - scholar association. Comments and suggestions are
solicited. We feel that it is important to have a fairly uniform and
well thought out structure which can be used by Chinese student
groups on any campus, no matter how small the number of students.
One of the major purposes of setting up such organizations, and one of
the hoped for outcomes, is that they can be linked to a national
organization and that someday these can be chapters of a national
organization. The formulation of a uniform type of organization will
greatly facilitate this.
Proposed Charter for a Chinese Student/Scholar Association.
Purpose of the association.
The goals of the association are the following:
1. To provide a means for social interaction and communication
among the students and scholars from China who are resident in (city
or university) and to provide a means for communication with other
Chinese students and scholars both here and in China. The term China
herein refers to individuals from the Peoples Republic of China
2. To promote the welfare of the students and scholars from China
by providing a voice for their concerns in the Universities and the
community and a voice for the students and scholars in matters of
general concern to the membership.
3. To assist Chinese students and scholars in their academic
endeavors as well as in other problems associated with their
adjustment here as foreign students.
4. The purposes of the Society will be non-political with the
provision that it may act in the cause of human rights issues on behalf
of the membership.
Membership. Anyone from the People's Republic of China who is a
student or scholar in a college or university within the (city or
unviersity) will be considered to have automatic membership in the
association. Individuals who have graduated and are working in the
community may apply for membership to the Association. Faculty
and other interested individuals can be given associate membership
(nonvoting) after nomination by the Committee and a majority vote
from the members at any meeting of the association.
Governance. The affairs of the Association will be run by a
Committee consisting of a Chairman, Secretary, a Treasurer and (xx)
other members. The committee will be elected at an annual meeting
and will serve for one year. Nominations for the positions will be
made by the voting members and must be seconded. Voting will be
conducted by ballot and election must be by majority vote in the case
of the Chairman, Secretary, and Treasurer. Where more than two
nominations are made a runoff ballot for the candidates receiving the
two highest totals will be made.
The Committee will meet once a month or the Chairman may call a
meeting at any time. Actions taken by the Committee must meet
with a majority vote of the committee.
The Chairman of the Committee will provide the leadership for the
Committee and act as the spokesperson for the Society.
The Secretary will have the responsibility of recording minutes of the
meetings and will be responsible for communications with local
members.
The Treasurer will have responsibilty for the funds of the Association
and will provide an annual fiscal report at the annual general meeting.
Funds of the Association will be disbursed by checks which must be
signed by the Chairman and the Treasurer.
Fund raising. The committee is empowered to raise funds for the
functioning of the association and are to be used solely to meet the
stated purposes of the Association, and can be approved by the
committee except as otherwise stated.
Funds will be raised by soliciting voluntary contributions from the
members; an amount may be made recommended by the members at
the annual meeting. Funds will also be raised by soliciting donations
from the community at large. Funds will be used for the purposes of
(examples):
1) paying for communications (stationery, telephone charges, postage)
and the purchase of communications equipment if necessary (a fax
machine, answering machine, telephone)
2) the costs of social gatherings for the Association
3) travel funds for a representative of the association to meet with
members of other Chinese student organizations in the United States.
Such travel expenditure must be approved by the members at a
general meeting
4) support of a national organization of similar aims
5) the committee may use funds for emergency assistance of members
in the form of short-term interest free loans or direct grants after a
unanimous vote of the committee.
Board of advisors (optional).
The Committee will invite from among the faculty of local Universities,
and from members of the local community or other interested
individuals to serve on an Advisory Board. Service will be for a
period of one year. The primary purpose of the advisory board will
be to serve as a resource for the students and scholars as individuals
to whom they may turn to for advice on academic matters and also for
advice on problems they may encounter in their adjustment here as
foreign students when their own institutional sources are inadequate.
Members will seek advice from individual members of the board
normally after consultation with a member of the Committee.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!wfang Sun Jul 16 16:11:14 PDT 1989
Article 20260 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!wfang
>From: wfang@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Weiping Fang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: How to fake IDs?
Message-ID: <29973@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>
Date: 6 Jul 89 17:17:03 GMT
References: <8907051853.AA21291@en.ecn.purdue.edu> <65557@yale-celray.yale.UUCP>
Sender: usenet@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Reply-To: wfang@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Weiping Fang)
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Lines: 29
In article <65557@yale-celray.yale.UUCP> Horne-Scott@cs.yale.edu (Scott Horne) writes:
>In article <8907051853.AA21291@en.ecn.purdue.edu>, jzhang@EN (Ji Zhang) writes:
>> The purpose of faking ID is to protect ourselves from CCP.
>> Can you not see the point???? Can you ever make something suggestive???
>
>To protect your IDs, you can have someone else post your articles.
Then, what's the point of anonymity? Haven't you heard the case
that a woman turned in her own brother to the government in Xian? :-(
>I've been
>known to do this quite often (and am of course still willing to do it).
How can people be SURE that they won't be reported to Deng?
I bet Sanyee and Bo never dare to take your offer. :-)
>> Can someone tell me how to put Scott Horne into my kill file?
>
>You've seen how. Such things have been posted. So why ask this publicly?
>To _liang4xiang4_?
Don't jump too quickly to accuse Ji. If you go back to
<8907051853.AA21291@en.ecn.purdue.edu>, you'll find it was posted
to SCC through daemon@ucbvax.berkeley.edu. This means Ji was
not using "rn" or "Pnews" to post it, but rather sending it to
soc-culture-china@ucbvax.berkeley.edu. It is then very natural
and logical to think that he/she had received SCC articles from
the redistributor. If that was the case, all those posted things
he/she might have seen obviously wouldn't have worked for him/her.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ANDREW.CMU.EDU!ls2r+ Sun Jul 16 16:12:20 PDT 1989
Article 20262 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ANDREW.CMU.EDU!ls2r+
>From: ls2r+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Lui Sieh)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Ted Koppel's TAM Report
Message-ID: <UYgtYpy00XoY04clF7@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 6 Jul 89 17:39:01 GMT
References: <12433@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Reply-To: ls2r+prc@andrew.cmu.edu
Organization: Zhongguo-request+@andrew.cmu.edu
Lines: 45
In article <12433@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> dated 4-Jul-89,
zam@athena.mit.edu (NorAazizam Bin MohdAasif) writes:
>It is an irony that the students who were killed in
>the TAM while promoting democracy did not heed
>to the basic concept of democracy: the majorities'
>opinion must take precedent over the minorities'.
>...
Good point.
but,
>...if the students were really looking for democracy,
>how come they didn't follow the concepts that
>they were trying to promote?
Everyone is still learning. And also, as long as the action does not
harm others, the "minority" may continue to act in accordance with their
beliefs without intereference from the majority. It wasn't like the
majority passed a law.
This however, brings up a troubling thought that was confirmed by my
brother (though it didn't have too). The traditional thing to do at the
demos was to post signs and banners to identify each group. The
occupation of TAM square also reflected that "separatism". The reason
why there was a minority of students in TAM square and who was probably
subsequently killed, is due largely because the students recognized not
one umbrella organization but rather many organizations that probably
competed with each other.
This showed up when there was a "reorganization" of student leaders.
When I heard that Wuer'Kaixi was stepping down due to "differences" I
think I was the only person who felt something was very wrong over
there. Kind of reminded me of the power purges of the Party itself.
Just some thoughts...
----- Lui
"We should all be concerned about the future because we will have to
spend the rest of our lives there." ----- Charles F. Kettering
ARPA: ls2r+prc@andrew.cmu.edu BITNET: ls2r%andrew@cmccvb
UUCP: ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!ls2r+
These words may or may not be the real opinions of the author.
From polya!shelby!eos!ames!lll-winken!csd4.milw.wisc.edu!zhao Sun Jul 16 16:12:41 PDT 1989
Article 20264 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!eos!ames!lll-winken!csd4.milw.wisc.edu!zhao
>From: zhao@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (T.C. Zhao)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Boycott
Message-ID: <3229@csd4.milw.wisc.edu>
Date: 6 Jul 89 17:43:12 GMT
Sender: news@csd4.milw.wisc.edu
Reply-To: zhao@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (T.C. Zhao)
Organization: University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee
Lines: 17
In response to the June 4 massacre in Beijing, the
ICSOS(International Conference on Structures of Surfaces) organ-
izing committee have voted unanimously for cancellation of the
China meeting scheduled next year. A statement of protest is in
preparation.
We applaud their decision and call for scientists in other
areas joining the effort to cancel the already scheduled meeting
in China and boycott all the feature conferences.
--
----------------------------------------------
Internet: zhao@csd4.milw.wisc.edu
UUCP: {...}!uwmcsd1!csd4!zhao
BITNET: zhao%csd4.milw.wisc.edu@WISCMAC3.BITNET
From polya!shelby!agate!bionet!csd4.milw.wisc.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!yale!Horne-Scott Sun Jul 16 16:13:01 PDT 1989
Article 20265 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!bionet!csd4.milw.wisc.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!yale!Horne-Scott
>From: Horne-Scott@cs.yale.edu (Scott Horne)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: How to put Scott Horne in KILL file
Message-ID: <65592@yale-celray.yale.UUCP>
Date: 6 Jul 89 17:00:49 GMT
References: <29972@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>
Sender: root@yale.UUCP
Reply-To: Horne-Scott@cs.yale.edu (Scott Horne)
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept, New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Lines: 20
In-reply-to: tedrick@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Tedrick)
In article <29972@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>, tedrick@ernie (Tom Tedrick) writes:
>
> Since Scott uses fake IDs to torment us even further, you may
> have to put each new fake ID he creates in the KILL file. This
> can be very time consuming.
Be advised that I shall not tolerate any more of these libellous accusations.
I never have faked any messages or articles. If you or anyone else does this
again, I will be forced to discuss your actions with your system
administrators.
You have been warned.
--Scott
Scott Horne Hacker-in-Chief, Yale CS Dept Facility
horne@cs.Yale.edu ...!{harvard,cmcl2,decvax}!yale!horne
Home: 203 789-0877 SnailMail: Box 7196 Yale Station, New Haven, CT 06520
Work: 203 432-6428 Summer residence: 175 Dwight St, New Haven, CT
Dare I speak for the amorphous gallimaufry of intellectual thought called Yale?
From polya!shelby!agate!pasteur!sim.berkeley.edu!jchen Sun Jul 16 16:13:13 PDT 1989
Article 20266 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!pasteur!sim.berkeley.edu!jchen
>From: jchen@sim.berkeley.edu (Jian Chen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Good News
Message-ID: <15205@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 6 Jul 89 18:26:06 GMT
Sender: news@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: jchen@sim.berkeley.edu (Jian Chen)
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 22
>From zhang Thu Jul 6 10:37:00 1989
Subject: good news -- two more rep's in our territory
Rep. George Miller of Martinez and Douglas Bosco of Napa Valley are now
cosponsors of Pelosi' bill. We are all set with them. I learn this
by calling them in Washington this morning. Rep. Charles Pashayan of
Fresno (Central Valley) is considering selecting one of the House bills
concerning us. It is likely to be Pelosi's. He will make his
decision next week. We should work on him. I have an American friend
in Fresno. I will call my friend to ask him to write a letter. I
will call more rep's of California to know their standings.
Yanjun
-------------------------------------------------
P.S. Both of them are in northen California. We kind of divided
the area and have people to take care all of them. As for now, it
seems that all the congressmen/women in the northen California are
cosponsors of Pelosi's bill. Let's work harder on rest of them!
Keep our hope alive.
Jian
From polya!shelby!agate!pasteur!ernie.Berkeley.EDU!timlee Sun Jul 16 16:13:34 PDT 1989
Article 20267 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!pasteur!ernie.Berkeley.EDU!timlee
>From: timlee@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Timothy J. Lee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Freedom of Speech Re: Beijing Butchers' Accomplice
Message-ID: <15207@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 6 Jul 89 18:32:15 GMT
References: <2552@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Sender: news@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: timlee@ernie.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Timothy J. Lee)
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 29
In article <2552@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu> SHENF@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Zhiyong Shen) writes:
|People's Daily again used freedom in the US to help CCP to kill freedom
|in China. On June 30, PD published CCP-style lies made by Weng Shaoqiu in
|San Franscisco.
|
|Before I start to call this person Butchers' accomplice, I know some
|people will cry "freedom of speech" and defend him. In fact, some even
|think that sending reports to Deng Xiaoping accusing Chinese students is
|freedom of speech.
|
|Yes, these shameless people are nothing but Butchers' accomplices. They
|are abusing freedom of speech granted by the US constitution to plunge their
|murderous knives into our parents, brothers and sisters who are already
|suffering. If their unconscionable action could be explained away by using
|an argument valid only in a free society, Lady Liberty would shed tears.
Freedom of speech allows one to say what he wants, even if it is unpopular.
Obviously, those who say unpopular things will be ostracized for it (by
others using their right to free speech).
Burning flags and crosses is protected (for now -- cross your fingers),
but makes the burner quite unpopular in the eyes of everyone else.
Defending the right to freedom of speech does not mean that one must
defend the speech itself.
Freedom of speech does not protect libel or slander, which is defined as
writing or speech which (1) is false, (2) known to be false by the
writer or speaker, and (3) defaming or damaging someone else.
From polya!shelby!agate!pasteur!ernie.Berkeley.EDU!timlee Sun Jul 16 16:14:02 PDT 1989
Article 20270 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!pasteur!ernie.Berkeley.EDU!timlee
>From: timlee@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Timothy J. Lee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Rule by Minority Re: Ted Koppel's TAM Report
Message-ID: <15209@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 6 Jul 89 18:42:38 GMT
References: <12433@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <1397@uceng.UC.EDU> <4836@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>
Sender: news@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: timlee@ernie.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Timothy J. Lee)
Distribution: na
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 11
In article <4836@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> matloff@iris.ucdavis.edu (Norm Matloff) writes:
|He said that the students had agreed beforehand that after the vote, they
|would implement the wishes of the **minority**, not the majority. [Koppel
|referred to this as "a bizarre twist on the theme of democracy," or
|something like that.] Unfortunately the report did not give the
|rationale for this policy.
That "ruling minority" may just have been some kind of government for
the student movement. Like all governments, it is the control of the
many by the few. (in truly democratic governments, the many can get
rid of the few if they don't like them)
From polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!husc6!endor!chen Sun Jul 16 16:15:03 PDT 1989
Article 20274 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!husc6!endor!chen
>From: chen@endor.harvard.edu (Lily Chen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Ted Koppel's TAM Report
Message-ID: <2169@husc6.harvard.edu>
Date: 6 Jul 89 18:53:15 GMT
References: <12433@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <UYgtYpy00XoY04clF7@andrew.cmu.edu>
Sender: news@husc6.harvard.edu
Reply-To: chen@endor.UUCP (Lily Chen)
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab Harvard, Cambridge, MA
Lines: 7
I am really bothered by so much talk about students at TAM square
decided to follow the minority. From what I know, students only
decided to leave the square when they could reach a unaminous
decision to leave. There might be some radicals who wanted to
stay anyway. The students were showing their solidarity and
didn't want to leave few radical students in the square alone
facing the troops. This is far different from a manority rule.
From polya!shelby!agate!pasteur!ernie.Berkeley.EDU!timlee Sun Jul 16 16:15:20 PDT 1989
Article 20275 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!pasteur!ernie.Berkeley.EDU!timlee
>From: timlee@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Timothy J. Lee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: returning to PRC may be dangerous Re: Isn't it shameful!
Message-ID: <15212@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 6 Jul 89 19:22:53 GMT
References: <687@bnr-fos.UUCP> <15095@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> <711@bnr-fos.UUCP>
Sender: news@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: timlee@ernie.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Timothy J. Lee)
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 41
In article <711@bnr-fos.UUCP> schow%BNR.CA.bitnet@relay.cs.net (Stanley Chow) writes:
|You are making the assumsion that living has priority above all else. This
|is clearly false, as history has amply demonstrated.
Dying for nothing is useless. Dying as a martyr may have an effect.
But the CCP will not allow martyrs through its press monopoly.
|>No, the choices are:
|>1. remain outside of the PRC. This does not require one to give up
|>on China.
|It depends on how one remains outside of PRC. If one were to claim refugee
|status, become a citizen, etc. I would say he/she has essentially given up.
|In fact, at least in the USA, acquiring citizen requires one to renounce one's
|former citizenship.
You mean that citizens of the USA cannot do anything for people in other
countries?
|On the other hand, to remain outside of PRC but working for reform and
|(hoping) to go back and work towards a better China is an entirely reasonable
|stratagy to follow.
|I suppose the difference is whether one puts down "roots" in the host country.
|>2. go back to the PRC to certain death. Note that the CCP controlled
|>media will do its best to prevent the creation of martyrs.
|I have a question for you. How to *you* think changes in China will happen
|if everyone is outside? How will "the CCP controlled media" be counteracted?
If everyone were outside of China then the CCP would be governing nothing.
Note that the CCP media was circumvented by _outsiders_ with fax machines.
There are too many people now in the PRC for the CCP to arrest them all.
The number of PRC citizens outside is much smaller, and they will be
coming back one at a time. This makes it a lot easier for the CCP to
kill/imprison/"reeducate" those returning than those who have been in
the PRC all of this time.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ulysses!cac Sun Jul 16 16:15:56 PDT 1989
Article 20277 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ulysses!cac
>From: cac@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (Andy Chou[rs])
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Xiong Jie == The Taiwanese Yuan Mu
Message-ID: <11762@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com>
Date: 6 Jul 89 19:21:06 GMT
References: <65044@yale-celray.yale.UUCP> <2158@husc6.harvard.edu> <4832@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill
Lines: 11
In article <4832@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>, matloff@iris.ucdavis.edu (Norm Matloff) writes:
> If a party is banned, then by definition, there is not "free
> competition for votes." So, by your own definition, banning
> political parties is not consistent with democracy.
>
> Norm
Please forgive my ignorance about following question:
Is Communist party legal in this country? I mean United States.
From polya!shelby!csli!leora Sun Jul 16 16:16:45 PDT 1989
Article 20278 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!csli!leora
>From: leora@csli.Stanford.EDU (Leora Weitzman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: details about Tiananmen Square,June 3
Summary: (maybe this has been posted already?)
Keywords: Tiananmen Square, June 3 massacre
Message-ID: <9603@csli.Stanford.EDU>
Date: 6 Jul 89 19:25:27 GMT
References: <65422@yale-celray.yale.UUCP> <14885@ut-emx.UUCP> <5936@hubcap.clemson.edu> <5938@hubcap.clemson.edu>
Sender: leora@csli.Stanford.EDU (Leora Weitzman)
Reply-To: leora@csli.stanford.edu (Leora Weitzman)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Center for the Study of Language and Information, Stanford U.
Lines: 198
>From sells Thu Jul 6 12:20:47 PDT 1989
Article 133 of csli.linguistics:
Path: csli!sells
>From: sells (Peter Sells)
Newsgroups: csli.linguistics
Subject: China
Message-ID: <9596@csli.Stanford.EDU>
Date: 6 Jul 89 16:25:33 GMT
Sender: sells@csli.Stanford.EDU
Lines: 190
Approved: news
>From prlmttr%bend@ucsd.edu Thu Jul 6 01:06:16 1989
Return-Path: <prlmttr%bend@ucsd.edu>
Received: from ucsd.edu by csli.Stanford.EDU (4.0/inc-1.0)
id AA12448; Thu, 6 Jul 89 01:05:58 PDT
Received: from bend.ucsd.edu by ucsd.edu; id AA10068
sendmail 5.60/UCSD-1.0
Wed, 5 Jul 89 22:31:37 PDT
Received: by bend.UCSD.EDU (4.0/UCSDGENERIC.2)
id AA13427 to sells@csli.stanford.edu; Wed, 5 Jul 89 22:29:31 PDT
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 89 22:29:31 PDT
>From: prlmttr%bend@ucsd.edu (David Perlmutter)
Message-Id: <8907060529.AA13427@bend.UCSD.EDU>
To: sells@csli.stanford.edu
Status: RO
>From FRAHARG@YALEVM.BITNET Tue Jul 4 15:38:26 1989
Received: from ucsd.edu (ucsd.UCSD.EDU) by bend.UCSD.EDU (4.0/UCSDGENERIC.2)
id AA07187 to newmark; Tue, 4 Jul 89 15:38:13 PDT
Received: by ucsd.edu; id AA01009
sendmail 5.60/UCSD-1.0
Tue, 4 Jul 89 15:37:58 PDT for newmark@bend.ucsd.edu
Message-Id: <8907042237.AA01009@ucsd.edu>
Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by ucsd.edu for FRAHARG@YALEVM.BITNET with BSMTP (1.1);
Tue, 4 Jul 89 22:37:56 GMT
Received: by YALEVM (Mailer X1.25) id 9536; Tue, 04 Jul 89 09:28:10 EDT
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 89 09:27:47 EDT
>From: harry <FRAHARG%YALEVM@ucsd.edu>
Subject: china
To: newmark@bend.ucsd.edu
Status: R
Received: by DUVM (Mailer R2.02A) id 9618; Mon, 26 Jun 89 08:10:34 EDT
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 89 08:10:23 EDT
>From: FENG@DUVM
To: J@DUVM,
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 89 16:58 EDT
>From: <PERRY@OHSTPY>
Subject: You've probably already seen this.
To: feng@duvm
Original_To: JNET%"feng@duvm"
>From: hkucc!hrasycf (Benjamin Yoong)
Subject:Australian Intelligence Report
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 89 02:35:20 pst
Message-ID:<8906242040.AA03245@hkucs.HKU.HK>
I've got the following report from the ASIAN_Link with Australia on the
International Fidonet BBSes.
Pls forward it to the US student groups and let them know.
It tells clearly why Bob Hawke, the Australian Prime Minister, was moved
to tears when he addressed a memorial ceremony for the dead.
=====
Raymond Ng
Secret Beijing Report to Australia....
21 Jun 89 02:35:20
THE FOLLOWING ARE EXACTS FROM A SECRET INTELLIGENCE REPORT TO THE AUSTRALIAN
GOVERNMENT FROM THE AUSTRALIAN EMBASSY IN BEIJING, IT DESCRIBES IN GRUESOME
DETAIL THE HORROR OF THE JUNE 3 MASSACRE. THE ORIGNAL WAS SENT FROM A
TELEGRAM, FROM BEIJING AT 12:40 PM ON JUNE 6:
The document said: "It is evident that atrocities have been committed on a
massive scale." It revealed that unarmed troops from other units were also
killed by the now notorious 27th Army. It described the troops of the 27th
Army as "Illiterate peasants" from the mountains of Shanxii, who had initially
been told they were to take part in a parade. But, as the military convoy
reached the outskirts of Beijing, they were given what was described as "a
fortnight of intensive political indoctrination" and were aware that it would
be their role to put down the protest. They were told nobody in Tiananmen
Square that night - man, woman or child - Should be spared. The document said
dozens were killed as "they stood by windows of their apartments, not
necessarily by stray bullets but deliberately. We know of one nine-year-old
girl who was shot through the throat as she opened the curtains in the
morning." The rampage had continued to the east ans west of the city as well.
Wild gunfire at Hujilialou killed two elderly nightwatchmen. Dum dum bullets
had torn away half their faces and heads. Their mutilated bodies were put on
public display next morning.
THE FOUR-PAGE TELEGRAM WAS BASED ON INFORMATION GLEANED FROM A NUMBER OF
SOURCES, INCLUDING ONE WHICH WAS DESCRIBED AS HAVING CONTACTS AT A VERY SENIOR
LEVEL IN THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT.
The telegram names the commander of the 27th Army as Yang Jianhua, the nephew
of China's defence chief. The telegram said that Yang Jianhua's troops were
first told they were on field exercises and then were marched for four days to
Beijing when the students occupation of Tiananmen began. It continued: "When
they reached the city they were blocked, and then withdrew to the outskirts,
where they were subjected to a fortnight of intensive political
indoctrination. During this period the Government also called in what were
regarded as the most reliable elements of other army groups from Sichuan and
Shenyang. However, only the 27th Army is present virtually in its entirety."
"On the night of June 3 the first troops to enter the city were from Shenyang,
Sichuan. The first wave was unarmed. The second wave was armed, but without
ammunition (although officers were given 3x5 rounds for their pistols to use
as warning shots). The final wave was the 27th Army which was armed with
automatic weapons, teargas, flame throwers and armored personnel carriers. The
first two waves were unsuccessful and there were the beginnings of some
fraternisation between groups and people, who had come out in enormous numbers
as on the previous evening. While this was happening the armored personnel
carriers and tanks of the 27th arrived travelling at about 65 km/h firing
their machineguns indiscriminately and crushing everyone in their path. After
the civilians recoverd from the initial shock, they attempted to pursue the
vehicles but were put down by repeated bursts of machinegun fire. This pattern
of events was repeated along the length of the main east-west avenue and the
worst killings before the 27th Army arrived at Tiananmen Sq took place at
Muxidi, Fuxingmen, Xidan and especially at Liueukou. At Liueukou the mass of
people succeed in termporarly blocking the road. While unarmed troops
attempted to clear them away, the armored column came crushing through the
crowds, killing many soldiers as well as students and civilians. One APC was
stopped and burned and the driver, a captain, was - surprisingly - taken to a
hospital, where he is still screaming to be killed because he has killed so
many innocent people."
"At Tienanmen, the Shenyang and Sichuan troops who first arrived attempted to
drive the people away, and to separate the students form the ordinary
citizens. A last warning was given, and the students prepared to leave. They
had expected to be given an hour, but within five minutes the APCs of the 27th
entered the square, firing their machineguns as they came. When all those who
had not managed to get away were either dead or wounded, foot soldiers went
through the square bayonetting or shooting anybody who was still alive. They
had orders that nobody in the square be spared, and children and young girls
were slaughtered as mercilessly as the many wounded soliers from other units
there. APCs and tanks then ran backwards and forwards over the bodies of the
slain until they were reduced to pulp, after which bulldozers moved in to push
the remains into piles, which were then incinerated by troops with flame
throwers. No ambulances were allowed on the square. One or two which had
followed the armored column in were machinegunned and their crews killed along
with everybody else. Some students and residents (about 1000) managed to
escape through the south-east corner of the square having been told by the
troops that they would be allowed to depart unhindered along Zhengyilu. When
they reached the first intersection they were machinegunned and many hundreds
killed. Some who played dead, however, were subsequently able to escape - one
of these later encountered an embassy officer and gave him an account which
closely tallied with the above description.
"While the troops were advancing from the west, other were coming in from the
east. Much killing occurred at Shilipu, Hujialou, and Dongdaqiao (between the
embassy and most staff apartments). Attempts were made by the people at all
these major intersections to block the advancing troops, with the inevitable
bloody consequences. At Dongdaqiao two military trucks from the Shenyang
division were knocked over and crushed by tanks of the 27th, and all the
occupants killed. More Shenyang troops were crushed to death at Hujialou and a
Shenyang Colonel who screamed abuse at the perpetrators was gunned down - as
he lay wounded he swore that if his troops only had ammunition they would open
fire on Shanxi soldiers. A shanxi soldier was seen to fall from a truck at
Hujialou. When the crowd rushed forward to deal with him it was discovered he
was already dead, shot in the back of the head. Other soldiers from the 27th
captured by the people have said that any troops seen by their superior
officers to be not firing were being shot themselves."
"Hospitals are telling people that they have now been forbidden to treat any
but wounded soldiers An Australian professor at Beijing University, Dr R.
Beveridge, (an expert in Chinese politics recently retired from Monash
Univerity and a man not given to flights of hyperbole) believes on the basis
of information he has from a wide range of sources the deaths are unlikely to
be fewer than 10,000."
"When asked why only the 27 Army had been given ammunition, our informant said
this was not only because of the army's loyalty to Yang Shankun, but because
the leadership wished to avoid the possibility of armed clashes between
different units. The informant said that many senior offical in Zhongnanhai
feared the outbreak of civil war. Many soldiers from units other than the 27th
Army, after being told the true situation by local residents, pulled back.
Some of their units have since snet back into the city after re-education but
others vowed not to return until they have ammunition with which to take
vengeance on the 27th Army."
"Informant has heard reports of other armies, from Xinjiang, Shandong and
Jiangxi - advancing towards Beijing without orders from the centre. When Yang
Shankun summoned a meeting of military region commanders a few weeks earlier,
the commanding officers of the Canton, Shenyang and Beijing regions refused to
attend - it is noteworthy that troops bivouacked outside the capital have not
been given access to the Beijing MR's many large camps and the Beijing MR
authourities have not assisted them with water or food".
END OF EXACTS.....
PLEASE LET THE WORLD KNOW WHAT REALLY HAPPENED!!!
Regards Raymond
: FENG DUVM 6/26/89
: FENG@DUVM J@DUVM 6/26/89 No subject
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!bloom-beacon!think!husc6!endor!chen Sun Jul 16 16:17:19 PDT 1989
Article 20280 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!bloom-beacon!think!husc6!endor!chen
>From: chen@endor.harvard.edu (Lily Chen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Ted Koppel's TAM Report
Message-ID: <2170@husc6.harvard.edu>
Date: 6 Jul 89 19:29:00 GMT
References: <12433@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <UYgtYpy00XoY04clF7@andrew.cmu.edu> <2169@husc6.harvard.edu>
Sender: news@husc6.harvard.edu
Reply-To: chen@endor.UUCP (Lily Chen)
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab Harvard, Cambridge, MA
Lines: 16
In article <2169@husc6.harvard.edu> chen@endor.UUCP (Lily Chen) writes:
>I am really bothered by so much talk about students at TAM square
>decided to follow the minority. From what I know, students only
>decided to leave the square when they could reach a unaminous
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
unanimous
>decision to leave. There might be some radicals who wanted to
>stay anyway. The students were showing their solidarity and
>didn't want to leave few radical students in the square alone
>facing the troops. This is far different from a manority rule.
Sorry for the mistake. The students followed majority rule
on every issue except on whether to stay or leave the square.
They decided that if one person would stay, everyone would
stay. This showed their determination and solidarity. And
this decision was made by the majority rule too.
From polya!shelby!eos!ames!apple!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF Sun Jul 16 16:17:39 PDT 1989
Article 20282 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!eos!ames!apple!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF
>From: SHENF@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Zhiyong Shen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Ted Koppel's TAM Report
Message-ID: <2556@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 6 Jul 89 19:52:45 GMT
References: <12433@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <UYgtYpy00XoY04clF7@andrew.cmu.edu> <2169@husc6.harvard.edu>
Sender: news@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu
Organization: Ohio State University
Lines: 19
Yes, even Chai Ling mentioned this -- she wanted to leave because she
feared (not for herself, but for all the students) the worst. From what
I hear from other people who participated in the movement, Lily's interpretation
is correct. That is, a minority wanted to stay (but that did NOT force
others to stay). Then others just could not leave those brothers and sisters
behind and decided to stay with them. There is safety in numbers. But
almost nobody had expected that CCP could have surpassed all the warlords
added together in killing students and civilians.
Ted Koppel is an American. He has already done a great job for someone who
only went to China for a week or two. We should not blame him for
misinterpreting or misunderstanding what he heard from a totally different
land. This morning I talked with a professor from England. He told me that
very often Americans make such mistakes even about England. Since the
difference between the US and England is much smaller than that between
China and the US, it is quite natural that Ted was confused and he in turn
confused other people.
Zhiyong
From polya!shelby!eos!ames!apple!bionet!csd4.milw.wisc.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!deimos.cis.ksu.edu!eecea!psb Sun Jul 16 16:18:11 PDT 1989
Article 20283 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!eos!ames!apple!bionet!csd4.milw.wisc.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!deimos.cis.ksu.edu!eecea!psb
>From: psb@eecea.eece.ksu.edu (Phil Buckland)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Use Computer Viruses to attack Chinese Bureaucracy
Message-ID: <669@eecea.eece.ksu.edu>
Date: 6 Jul 89 19:53:09 GMT
References: <745@mitisft.Convergent.COM> <758@mitisft.Convergent.COM> <710@bnr-fos.UUCP>
Reply-To: psb@eecea.UUCP (Phil Buckland)
Organization: Kansas State University, Manhattan
Lines: 24
My *professional* opinion on this subject is that the infecting of
computer systems with viruses is *irresponsible*. To do so would be the
same as the U.S. declaring war on China before all other possible means
of resolution had been attempted.
In dealing with a totalitarian government, there are *no* guarantees
that any statements of intent are communicated accurately to the masses, since
the government controls the press. I can also imagine what world opinion
toward the U.S. would be when the propaganda machine starts rolling, denouncing
the U.S. for not providing better control over its own populace.
I am all for supporting the governments various attempts to get
through to the Chinese, without resorting to the type of uncontrolled guerrilla
warfare advocated by the previous postings.
(Any discussion of the technical difficulties in viral attacks should be
kept in the apprioriate newsgroups).
Phil Buckland
Computer Engineer
Disclaimer: My opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer.
They are mine, and mine alone.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!bill Sun Jul 16 16:18:34 PDT 1989
Article 20285 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!bill
>From: bill@ut-emx.UUCP (Bill Jefferys)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Xiong Jie == The Taiwanese Yuan Mu
Message-ID: <14926@ut-emx.UUCP>
Date: 6 Jul 89 20:35:16 GMT
References: <65044@yale-celray.yale.UUCP> <2158@husc6.harvard.edu> <4832@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> <11762@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com>
Reply-To: bill@emx.UUCP (Bill Jefferys)
Organization: UTexas Computation Center, Austin, Texas
Lines: 19
Posted: Thu Jul 6 15:35:16 1989
In article <11762@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com> cac@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (Andy Chou[rs]) writes:
#In article <4832@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>, matloff@iris.ucdavis.edu (Norm Matloff) writes:
#
#> If a party is banned, then by definition, there is not "free
#> competition for votes." So, by your own definition, banning
#> political parties is not consistent with democracy.
#>
#> Norm
#
#Please forgive my ignorance about following question:
#
#Is Communist party legal in this country? I mean United States.
Thanks to the Supreme Court, it is legal in the U.S. In recent
years it has even run candidates, although few if any were
elected. (In the 1950s there were laws that outlawed the CP,
but they were struck down as unconstitutional.)
Bill Jefferys
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pt.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!yz04+ Sun Jul 16 16:19:30 PDT 1989
Article 20289 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pt.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!yz04+
>From: yz04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Yuting Zhang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re:another-joke
Message-ID: <AYgs5ry00UiWE6p2Qm@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 6 Jul 89 15:57:43 GMT
Organization: Metallurgy and Material Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 8
An very good joke!!!
It is true, in China, if you want voice yourself somewhat against the
government, the only place where you can do something is---the BATHROOM!
Otherwise, if you've politically opened-up, you will be put into prison,
labor education. Even common, innocent people have to study governmental
politics.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!bloom-beacon!athena.mit.edu!joe Sun Jul 16 16:20:16 PDT 1989
Article 20294 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!bloom-beacon!athena.mit.edu!joe
>From: joe@athena.mit.edu (Joseph C Wang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Xiong Jie == The Taiwanese Yuan Mu
Message-ID: <12469@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>
Date: 6 Jul 89 22:16:34 GMT
References: <65044@yale-celray.yale.UUCP> <2158@husc6.harvard.edu> <4832@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> <11762@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com>
Sender: daemon@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: joe@athena.mit.edu (Joseph C Wang)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Lines: 10
In article <11762@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com> cac@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (Andy Chou[rs]) writes:
>Is Communist party legal in this country? I mean United States.
Yes. The Supreme Court has ruled that restricting the Communist Party is
unconstitutional.
--------------------------------
Joseph Wang (joe@athena.mit.edu)
450 Memorial Drive C-111
Cambridge, MA 02139
From polya!shelby!rutgers!sunybcs!ningluo Sun Jul 16 16:20:49 PDT 1989
Article 20295 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!sunybcs!ningluo
>From: ningluo@sunybcs.uucp (Ning Luo)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Deng's hideous mentality Re: Fact about TIBET (2 of 8)
Message-ID: <7625@cs.Buffalo.EDU>
Date: 6 Jul 89 22:56:05 GMT
Expires: 20 Jul 89 04:00:00 GMT
References: <14914@ut-emx.UUCP> <12124@pur-ee.UUCP>
Sender: nobody@cs.Buffalo.EDU
Reply-To: ningluo@sunybcs.UUCP (Ning Luo)
Distribution: usa
Organization: SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science
Lines: 51
In article <12124@pur-ee.UUCP> songj@pur-ee.UUCP (Jisheng Song) writes:
>In article <14914@ut-emx.UUCP> bill@emx.UUCP (Bill Jefferys) writes:
>>
>>But you are right. The apology is more important than the money,
>>and even though it took nearly 50 years, we did finally apologize
>>for this terrible injustice.
>>
>
>In Deng's publicized speech, he said something like "We killed the
>demonstrators. But so what? US government did it before." Then
>some loyal historian dug out killing incidents in American history,
>particular one in the anti-vietnam-war movement, to prove Deng's speech.
>This historian even went farther, saying that US congressmen have no
>right to condemning CCP's brutal behaviour since killing students also
>happened in US and they are responsible (We should let US congressmen
>know what absurd accusation the CCP has put on them.)
>
>Let's not talk about how despicable this toadying historian is. I just
>want to point out that I have never heard any US president saying that
>the students died deserved death since they disobeied the government order.
>I am even wondering whether there is any American holding this opinion.
>According to my knowledge, that incident was condemned by American people.
>
I think the key difference is NOT whether or not the killings are condemned by
the people of that country. "People" is a very vague and
very easily misleading word. Do Chinese "people" support the killings
of 6.4? Or do they condemn it? Person A would argue for the former,
and person B for the latter. It is exactly this kind of the ambiguities
that the Chinese leaders lay their arguments on:"So what's the big
deal, there's no real qualitative difference".
The key difference is that the opposite views are allowed
to express at all. For example, at the beginning of the Viet Nam War,
the majority of the American people were, according to some,
supportive. But the dissenting voices was allowed by the law,
although they might have been harassed by others, and not been heard for
a while.
(Just as somebody said: there is freedom AFTER the speech.)
We may ask the Chinese leaders:" Do you allow anybody
to condemn, in public (e.g. in TAM Square), the 6.4 killings by PLA?"
Under such question, all the aforementioned 'ambiguities' will evaporate.
The real difference is the WAY(or means) to do things,
not whether the cause(or the ends) is supported by the majority or not.
Luo, Ning
Dept. of Physics
SUNY Buffalo
Amherst, NY 14260 | ningluo@marvin.cs.buffalo.edu (APARNET)
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!sunybcs!swchen Sun Jul 16 16:21:15 PDT 1989
Article 20296 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!sunybcs!swchen
>From: swchen@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Shou-Wen Chen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Tibet, PRC flag, and other ethnic minorities
Message-ID: <7626@cs.Buffalo.EDU>
Date: 6 Jul 89 23:09:59 GMT
Sender: nobody@cs.Buffalo.EDU
Reply-To: swchen@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Shou-Wen Chen)
Distribution: usa
Organization: SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science
Lines: 36
In article 22387 of soc.culture.china:
>[[ (Steven Lin) writes:
There are five Stars on PRC flag. Each star represents a race of people.]]
========
>>> Timothy Lee comments :
>>> The PRC flag represents one party rule. The big star is the CCP and
>>> the 4 little stars are various parts of the government (or is it classes
>>> (not races) of people).
==========
> Mr. Timothy Lee, what you said shows your ignorance in China. Steve Lin is
> right that the stars does represent five major ethnic groups. The twelve
> stars in the flag Republic of China agains represents twelve tribes of
> of Chinese. If I were you, I would shut up and not make any ridiculous
> comments.
> China is a very inhomogenous society and has a lots of ethnic minorities
> The five stars represents the major ethnic groups.
> Let me give you a suggestion. Go to library, do some homework about
> China . Come back and discuss with us.
I don't agree with what you comments on Mr. Tmonthy Lee, and I am strongly
disgusted with your personal attack on Mr. Lee by saying that he is
ignorance in China. The big star in PRC flag INDEED represent CCP, so
Mr. Timothy Lee is partly correct at lease. Most of the netter in this
news group are chinese, so I don't think you know China bettter than any
other person in the news group. Therefore, be more respectful toward
different opinions, O.K.?
Shou-Wen Chen
Dept. of Geography
SUNY at Buffalo
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!VB.CC.CMU.EDU!R746LS2R Sun Jul 16 16:21:40 PDT 1989
Article 20297 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!VB.CC.CMU.EDU!R746LS2R
>From: R746LS2R@VB.CC.CMU.EDU (Xue Lei)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: The beginnings of Min Zhu
Message-ID: <8907062321.AA17190@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 7 Jul 89 02:22:37 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 134
I saw something on the local bboard here that was supposedly cross-posted to
SCC. However, I must have missed it. Anyway, I decided to add a few things
to it.
I think that the following is something that almost every person believes in --
one way or another:
"We [the People] hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights,
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". That to
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
ensure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
powers from the consent of the governed."
So then we can safely say that the Chinese government (ie. CCP), does violate
(for a lack of a better term) the above *human* rights. That is:
1) They deny to the Chinese people the rights of any and all human beings.
Among those rights that are taken for granted here are:
a) freedom of press,
b) freedom of speech,
c) freedom to peaceably assemble and petition the government for a redress
of grievances.
2) They deny to the Chinese people Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness
by doing some of the following:
a) there are no protections of personal liberties which will protect the
person from arbitrary law. Meaning, law is decided by the wishes and
biases of the CCP judge for the CCP. You don't bite the hand that
feeds you naturally.
b) there are no courts that protect the liberties of the accused. Arrest
means guilty. [While I'm not making fun of the Chinese traditional
legal system, we already see what that means. Anyone who is arrested
has been given a death sentence. We know that is not right.]
c) There is no such thing as a trial to guarantee the life and liberties
of the accused person. Which is probably protected under the Chinese
Constitution. Law in other words is not impartial and therefore, there
is no fairness at all.
d) There is no protection against "unreasonable search and seizure".
The above 4 naturally do not help toward making life in China easy. How can
one be happy when they are constantly worrying about the damn yellow uniformed
officer? How can one be happy when they know that life is not theirs to keep
and do as they please? How can one be happy when their life is not protected
and their liberties and freedoms are not protected? How can one be happy when
there is the market for the small informant all the time? At least to me,
worrying causes a great deal of unhappiness....I think for those who really
think about it, it's true. It's just that people have become so desensitized
to the Chinese way of living and have assumed to be the only way, they don't
consider these questions to often. And if they do, they keep it to themselves
because it would be disaster for anyone to find out...
Finally after "deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.",
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is
the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
..."
That Right naturally means Revolution. The heart of the matter I think is in
this very idea that it is the right and I would even go farther to say that it
is the *duty* of the people to overthrow and create a government that will be
a true creation of the people that will protect the Life, Liberty and the
pursuit of Happiness of the people who created the government. It is the idea
that the final power and decision lies solely on the *will* of the People to
*determine* their *life* and *no one* else. It is *wrong* to believe otherwise
and it is *wrong* to accept it.
The above passage was taken from the United Stated Declaration of Independence
when the American colonials decided that living under British law and rule was
unacceptable. One of the strains of thought during those early days of the
American people was that it is *unacceptable* for someone to impose their rule
and to control their (American) way of life. It isn't right. To the American
Colonials, this was self-evident.
To the Chinese, this is self-evident too. I claim this is true because of the
intense hatred borne from the early days of foreign rule where China was split
into the sections that was controlled by a different European power. And, in
Chinese history, the only factor that has ever united Chinese, was the fact
that some foreigner was taking over the country or that some foreigner was
ruling the country.
Now, the question is, does making Chinese people denying the rights of other
Chinese people make it right or make it acceptable? If it does, then I see
no reason whatsoever for what just has occurred since the beginnings of the
Democracy Wall and which exploded this May and June. If it is acceptable, then
I would have to agree with Mr. Shen in Minnesota, the Professor Emeritus at
Columbia University, and with an acquaintance here at CMU that I wrote about
the other day. Why cause trouble? Why cause anarchy when life is fine? Why
create turmoil and civil war when there is nothing wrong? If you cause trouble
then the punishment should be swift and harsh (ie. traditional Chinese way).
But, there is something wrong. And I believe that it goes much much further
than the obvious. I think that if more honest questions are raised the heart
of the matter will come out. Many people before and after the May and June
demos have consistently said that they don't know what to do. That is a sign
of confusion. [Don't flame,please. No insult is intended here]. The more
facts come out the easier answers will come. The clearer things become. I
think that's just common sense. However, the facts that I am talking about
*are not* fact we read from the news. *Are not* the facts that that we hear
from relatives and friends in China. The facts that I am refering to are the
voices, the beliefs, the feelings, the emotions, the ideas, the essence of
each individual. In other words, keep digging and see what discovery is made.
Confront those emotions, those ideas. Don't be afraid of what comes out...
just accept them as they are.
I believe that the answers to success of the democracy movement, China's future
depends on the decision that occurrs within each individual. If enough people
feel that it is ok to learn to accept it (which is a Chinese trait), then its
over. Don't need to go further...The CCP will stay, the system will remain
mostly intact and life will go on as usual.
If, enough people feel that No, it is not acceptable then things get to be
clear really fast. I believe that. I don't have any support or facts to back
my hypothesis but my instincts say that things will become clear and *focused*.
And when that happens, it is easy to act. Things won't seem so depressing.
Life will take on a new meaning. It will *go* somewhere. It will go toward
the future.
I feel that many people are either inbetween or toward the "it can be accepted"
end.
Before I end, I would like to comment that some people in the past and present
and I'm not singling anyone out, have more than once said to me both privately
and publicly that I need to be aware of my place and position on this net
(given my background). Well, I would appreciate it greatly if instead, just
read my posts and concern yourself with the content. Judge my ideas on its own
merits. That's all I ask.
I think the following should be quite meaningful. I'll end my extremely long
and probably boring essay with it. Thanks for reading it if you've gotten
this far.
THE FUTURE IS NOW.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!bsu-cs!xiong Sun Jul 16 16:22:32 PDT 1989
Article 20302 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!bsu-cs!xiong
>From: xiong@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Bo Xiong)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Info About Nobel Peace Prize & News From Canada
Summary: I am helping to post this
Message-ID: <8121@bsu-cs.bsu.edu>
Date: 6 Jul 89 23:24:30 GMT
Reply-To: xiong@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Bo Xiong)
Organization: CS Dept, Ball St U, Muncie, Indiana
Lines: 43
>From: 8726023@McMaster.CA Thu Jul 6 12:41:25 1989
===============================================================================
Here we have done sth. But nobody gets time to send out.
1. I get 21 pages material from Norway Consulate in Toronto, which
gives a whole picture about NObel Peace Price, history, list of winners
and who could be candidate, etc. I could send it to you by ordinary mail,
since I don't think it's a hurry matter;
2. We heard about Chinese people lined in front of the Immig. Office in
Toronto, waiting for application forms for permanent residence and the image
is very bad. We invited immig. official went to our compus to answer questions
and he would hand out application forms on next monday on compus;
3. We got support from our univ. administration to give a series lectures
about the politic system and democracy in Canada, now this matter has been
settled down, ie. there will be 20 lectures per year, the lecturers will be
experts on Canada studies, such as the dean of humanity faculy here;
Let me add something to #1, you already knew who has the right to nominate.
The candidates should be an individuale, institutions, or organizations.
Through the total history of Nobel Peace Price(1901-1988), the price
was awarded 75 times, among which 18 times went to organizations or
inst.s, there are:
1. Inst. de Droit Intl.( Inst. of International Law) 1904,
2. Permanent international Peace Bureau, 1910,
3. Int. Commettee of the Red Cross, 1917, 1945, 1963,
4. Nansen Int. Office for Refugees, 1938,
5. The Friends' Service Council, 1947,
6. Office of the UN high Commissioner for Refugees, 1955,
7. UN Childrens' Fund, 1965,
8. Int. LAbour Organ., 1969,
9. Amnesty Int., 1977,
10. Office of the UN high Commission for Refugees, 1981,
11. Int. Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War, 1985,
12. UN Peace -keeping Forces, 1988 ( sorry the total # is 19, not 18)
Since all the Price holder has the right to nominate, so the info
above is useful.
===============================================================================
.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!CAESAR.CS.UMN.EDU!cs519905 Sun Jul 16 16:22:56 PDT 1989
Article 20303 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!CAESAR.CS.UMN.EDU!cs519905
>From: cs519905@CAESAR.CS.UMN.EDU (Aaron Y. T. Cheung)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Ted Koppel's "Tragedy at Tiananmen" video from ABC Distributions
Message-ID: <8907062356.AA00721@caesar.cs.umn.edu.>
Date: 6 Jul 89 23:56:58 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 20
After all these controversies of the Koppel's report,
for those who wish to look at it a second time, or those
who missed it, and have no access to a recorded copy ---
you can order an "official" copy of Koppel's "Tragedy at Tiananmen"
tape from a video distributor in Vermont that carries official
tapes from ABC Distributions. Call 1-800-843-0048 for details.
They're charging a fortune for it though, $49.95 + $4.00 for shipping.
But for those who deem their money is worth spending for a video document
of an important page of Chinese history (be that document good or bad),
the tape available.
DISCLAIMER: I've no affiliation whatsoever with ABC or the Vermont store.
==============================================================================
"Be not deceived. Revolutions do not go backward." -Abraham Lincoln, 5/19/1856
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Cheung @ University of Minnesota, Twin Cities (612)-623-8026
==============================================================================
From polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watmath!watdragon!violet!rzhu Sun Jul 16 16:23:18 PDT 1989
Article 20305 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watmath!watdragon!violet!rzhu
>From: rzhu@violet.waterloo.edu (Rupert Zhu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Beijing People Fear Phone Tapping ---- revealed in Beijing Youth News
Message-ID: <14946@watdragon.waterloo.edu>
Date: 6 Jul 89 20:22:30 GMT
Sender: daemon@watdragon.waterloo.edu
Lines: 38
Tapping Fears
=============
(Quoted from The Times "Jiang Eases up on Deng's Hard Line")
June 29, 1989
Catherine Sampson, Peking
=========================
Telephone tapping has become so common in Peking that Peking Youth News
has been trying to reassure the public that all is well. But the article is
hardly one to bring comfort to its readers. It is one of the first to
acknowledge that Peking is a city living in fear.
"In recent days," it says, "people in Peking who normally love to make
phone calls have suddenly become cautions, and many of them say on the phone
`Let's write or chat face to face instead, otherwise we might get into
trouble.'"
There are rumours that all phones are being tapped, or that advanced
scanning equipment is being used, according to the article, entitled "You do
not have to be on tenterhooks when you make a phone call".
Mr Zhao Jizhi, a senior engineer at the telecommunications management
bureau, said that half of the 280,000 phones in Peking were computer-
programmed, and could not be tapped. The other half could be tapped, but were
not -- there were far too many of them. And in 30 years, Mr Zhao had never
heard of scanning equipment.
================================= End =========================================
Information Exchange
--------------------- rzhu@violet.uwaterloo.ca (in Canada)
Rupert Zhu (in Canada) rzhu@violet.waterloo.edu (Elsewhere)
'
From polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!bionet!ames!hc!lanl!opus!zhao Sun Jul 16 16:23:48 PDT 1989
Article 20307 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!bionet!ames!hc!lanl!opus!zhao
>From: zhao@nmsu.edu (Z. Zhao)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: /*no suitable title*/
Message-ID: <ZHAO.89Jul6185728@kythera.nmsu.edu>
Date: 7 Jul 89 00:57:28 GMT
Sender: news@nmsu.edu
Distribution: soc.culture.china
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Lines: 17
Everybody will agree that there is no absolute freedom,
equality and fraternity. Is there any absolute human rights,
majority rule, self-determination ... in the world ?
Can you go to any country or place where you self-determine
to go ?
Will a decision from the majority rule be against some human
rights ?
Sorry. My problem may not fit SCC. It is not about j-1 visa,
not 6.4 TAM massacre, not Tibet, not government agents ...
But, it is from reading SCC.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!oliveb!oliveb.OLIVETTI.COM Sun Jul 16 16:24:03 PDT 1989
Article 20308 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!oliveb!oliveb.OLIVETTI.COM
>From: prs@oliveb.OLIVETTI.COM (Philip Stephens)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Rule by Minority Re: Ted Koppel's TAM Report
Message-ID: <44355@oliveb.olivetti.com>
Date: 7 Jul 89 02:46:57 GMT
References: <15209@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU:
Sender: news@oliveb.olivetti.com
Distribution: na
Lines: 23
>From article <15209@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU:, by timlee@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Timothy J. Lee):
: In article <4836@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> matloff@iris.ucdavis.edu (Norm Matloff) writes:
: |He said that the students had agreed beforehand that after the vote, they
: |would implement the wishes of the **minority**, not the majority. [Koppel
:
: That "ruling minority" may just have been some kind of government for
: the student movement. Like all governments, it is the control of the
: many by the few. (in truly democratic governments, the many can get
: rid of the few if they don't like them)
You are both just guessing, so I'll counter with a guess that I prefer:
The unanimous decision described as implementing "the wishes of the minority"
may have been, rather, a decision not to *abandon* those who choose to stay
even if they are a minority. If this were the case, it would not be
surprising if the description reached Koppel third hand or worse, suffering
some distortion in both retelling and translation.
As I said, this is only a guess. Eventually some of the escaped student
leaders may clear this up, but meanwhile I wouldn't wring my hands over
how awful it *sounds* in the way it has been *described*.
- Phil prs@oliven = prs@oliven.atc.olivetti.com (Phil Stephens)
or: (hplabs,ihnp4,sun,allegra,amdahl)oliveb!oliven!prs
From polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!hkucs.UUCP!kwchan Sun Jul 16 16:24:45 PDT 1989
Article 20309 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!hkucs.UUCP!kwchan
>From: kwchan@hkucs.UUCP (Chan Ki Wa)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: little poem - kwchan
Message-ID: <8907071008.AA27540@hkucs.HKU.HK>
Date: 7 Jul 89 10:08:39 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 40
>From hkucc!hrasycf Thu Jul 6 23:42:56 1989
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 89 23:42:54 pst
>From: hkucc!hrasycf (Benjamin Yoong)
To: hkucs!kwchan, hkucs!swlau, hkucs!mklam, hkucs!hkucc!hcxccft
Subject: A little poem
Status: R
Just translated this little poem, distribute it to friends if you like:
3-part poem entitled "Little Poem" written on 2 pages of a notebook
posted in Tiananmen Square. Author unknown.
Child: Mum, Mum. Those little aunties and uncles, why don't they eat?
Mum: They want to get a beautiful gift.
Child: What gift?
Mum: Freedom.
Child: Who gives them such beautiful gift?
Mum: Themselves.
Child: Mum, Mum. Why are there so many, so many people in the Square?
Mum: This is a festive day.
Child: What festival?
Mum: Festival of Illumination.
Child: Where are the lights?
Mum: In the hearts of everyone.
Child: Mum, Mum. Who are in the ambulances?
Mum: Heroes.
Child: Why do heros fall down?
Mum: So that children at the back can see.
Child: Me?
Mum: Yes.
Child: What to see?
Mum: The flowers of seven colours.
A 4-year old girl and her mother.
Source: October Review, Chinese Prodemocracy Movement selected materials,
Volume 1, page 94.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!wei Sun Jul 16 16:25:03 PDT 1989
Article 20310 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!wei
>From: wei@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu (Siqing Wei)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Tibet, PRC flag, and other ethnic minorities
Message-ID: <505@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 7 Jul 89 03:35:14 GMT
References: <7626@cs.Buffalo.EDU>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Ohio State University Physics
Lines: 14
What's the big deal about the BIG STAR standing for THE PARTY
or not ?
I don't really see that China is gonvered by A PARTY (SINGLE
PARTY), it is gonvered by AN EMPEROR, party is no more than
a name. Isn't it true, when there is no agreement in the
PARTY (even within the centra-committee) THE EMPEROR would
get somebody (agree with HIM) to have a so called "enlarged"
conference, just to make an image that it is decided by the
group of people, who are THE PEOPLE---- THE EMPEROR.
My point is, there is no such thing as PARTY in CHINA, (or
you can make it more precise, no REAL PARTY), there is only
EMPEROR !!
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!wei Sun Jul 16 16:25:47 PDT 1989
Article 20313 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!wei
>From: wei@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu (Siqing Wei)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Rule by Minority Re: Ted Koppel's TAM Report
Message-ID: <506@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 7 Jul 89 03:50:35 GMT
References: <15209@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU: <44355@oliveb.olivetti.com>
Organization: Ohio State University Physics
Lines: 17
Are we still Chinese, or have we all forgotten what the
situation in China ?
I don't understand those who are arguing WHO should decide
what to do, majority or monority. What would be the case,
if there were not so many people in the square from the
beginning ? Wasn't this kind of things had happened a
couple of years ago ? You have to support your fellow
students if, and even if they are only a small part of the
group. This is the way to show your respect, show your
support, also this is the only way to "prevent the emperor
to be something real devil, (even though, HE did!).
By the way, if the majority rule stands, how would all those
80% rural population think about ? Should we conclude that
there is no need (and maybe never will) for anything except
listen to the EMPEROR ?
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!unmvax!aplcen!jhunix!ins_ayu Sun Jul 16 16:26:14 PDT 1989
Article 20314 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!unmvax!aplcen!jhunix!ins_ayu
>From: ins_ayu@jhunix (Yu Wu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Pelosi Bill Faces Fatal Problem
Message-ID: <2040@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU>
Date: 7 Jul 89 03:34:44 GMT
Sender: ins_ayu@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU
Reply-To: ins_ayu@jhunix (Yu Wu)
Organization: The Johns Hopkins University - HCF
Lines: 27
The Pelosi Bill Faces Fatal Problem
As some students have pointed out, the Pelosi bill "does not
promise that a J-1 visa holder can stay here, depending on job opportunities".
This weak point might turn the bill into a fatal condition.
Imagine that the bill gets passed in the future. People who stay here
will be those in "good" fields, such as engineering, computers, and natural
sciences. It is simply because they are the ones who can easily find a job.
Now, what about people in social studies? They can hardly stay here simply
because they are in "bad" fields where few jobs are available. They
participated in all demonstration as actively as those in "good" fields did.
So, they face the same fear as those in "good" fields.
Unfortunately, the Pelosi bill will not relief the fear for those in
"bad" fields and thus creates an unequalness among people in "good" and "bad"
fields. As a result, the bill has a fatal weakness both in terms of the
human right that agrees that all the people are created equal and in terms of
the basic principles of the U.S. Constitution. If this fatal weakness affects
its justification in the Congress, then how will the bill be passed?
How to resolve the problem?
JHU visa subcommitte
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!purdue!chuang Sun Jul 16 16:26:44 PDT 1989
Article 20318 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!purdue!chuang
>From: chuang@cs.purdue.EDU (Jung-Hong Chuang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Xiong Jie == The Taiwanese Yuan Mu
Message-ID: <7083@medusa.cs.purdue.edu>
Date: 7 Jul 89 04:54:15 GMT
References: <65044@yale-celray.yale.UUCP> <2158@husc6.harvard.edu> <12469@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Purdue University
Lines: 17
In article <12469@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>, joe@athena.mit.edu (Joseph C Wang) writes:
> In article <11762@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com> cac@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (Andy Chou[rs]) writes:
>
> >Is Communist party legal in this country? I mean United States.
>
> Yes. The Supreme Court has ruled that restricting the Communist Party is
> unconstitutional.
> --------------------------------
> Joseph Wang (joe@athena.mit.edu)
Was CP banned in US in certain period of time? Why? Because CP was dangerous
to US at that time? or some other reasons.
Chuang
From polya!shelby!agate!pasteur!ernie.Berkeley.EDU!timlee Sun Jul 16 16:27:10 PDT 1989
Article 20321 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!pasteur!ernie.Berkeley.EDU!timlee
>From: timlee@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Timothy J. Lee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Boycott Chinese Firearm Sales in U.S. !!
Keywords: Arms, Deng, PLA, Boycott!
Message-ID: <15248@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 7 Jul 89 05:33:21 GMT
References: <29983@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>
Sender: news@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: timlee@ernie.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Timothy J. Lee)
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 19
Xref: polya soc.culture.china:20321 talk.politics.guns:2551
In article <29983@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> jyee@eclair.berkeley.edu () writes:
|(from the SF Chronicle, Wednesday 7/5)
| After the 6/4 Beijing massacre, Chinese companies are continuing to
| import arms into the U.S.. After the recent banning of AK-47 semi-
| automatic weapon imports into the states, two chinese companies,
| both supplied directly by the PLA, continue to import other types
| of weapons to U.S. (e.g., handguns, rifles,... ).
|
| It is understood that 85% of the profit from the sales of these
| weapons goes back to the PLA.
|
|I say this is a TERRIFIC boycott/protest opportunity. Such boycotts will
|not only hurt the murderous PLA directly
It might be useful to know what types of weapons that these two companies
are importing into the USA.
Or maybe the "Made in China" label is sufficient.
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!agate!Pilger@Ausland Sun Jul 16 16:27:50 PDT 1989
Article 20323 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!agate!Pilger@Ausland
>From: Pilger@Ausland
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Pelosi Bill Faces Fatal Problem
Message-ID: <26082@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>
Date: 7 Jul 89 05:51:48 GMT
References: <2041@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU>
Sender: usenet@agate.BERKELEY.EDU
Organization: University of California
Lines: 11
It seems the bill pushing effort is losing its political content (protecting
the Chinese students) and becoming a technical bill (fairness of issuing J-1
to Chinese students). This has caused some confusion and debate amoung
Chinese students and scholars. One way to correct this is for those who have
legitimate and immediate safety concerns to step forward and collectively
seek political asylum. One group comes to my mind is those brave former CCP
members, I tried to call one of the organizer but couldn't get through (I
just used the phone number they put in the newspapers). Maybe some netters
can forward this suggestion to them. The key point is: protecting Chinese
students and scholars is a political issue, so let it be as political as
possible.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!njin!princeton!phoenix!hehuang Sun Jul 16 16:28:24 PDT 1989
Article 20325 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!njin!princeton!phoenix!hehuang
>From: hehuang@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (He Huang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: PRINCETON has got a new FAX machine
Message-ID: <9290@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Date: 7 Jul 89 05:09:06 GMT
Reply-To: hehuang@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (He Huang)
Organization: Princeton University, NJ
Lines: 5
Princeton University has just received a new fax machine presented by a local
American Chinese community. It will be used for communication with other
universities, and for sending material back to China.
The fax number for this machine is : (609) - 924 - 8164.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU!jzhang Sun Jul 16 16:28:40 PDT 1989
Article 20326 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU!jzhang
>From: jzhang@EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU (Ji Zhang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: We owe the students in China
Message-ID: <8907070634.AA00237@en.ecn.purdue.edu>
Date: 7 Jul 89 06:34:04 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 20
The Pelosi's bill is a very bitter-sweet thing to us.
This little freedom we may get is at such a heavy price of so many
lost lives.
We owe those brave students, their families, their comrades.
Suggestions:
*******
For those of us who may benefit from the possible new J-1 policies,
we should make certain amount of donations from our salary
(say, 5%?) of the first year, at soon as we have a stable income.
*******
Boycott the products of certain countries which have shown no or
little sympathy to the Chinese democracy movement by insisting
on doing business with the CCP, who believe money over principle.
In particular: Japan
We should buy American! Although our purchase power is limited, it
symbolizes our resentment to those in Japan who want to benefit from
the possible economic sanctions by other countries.
From polya!shelby!eos!ames!apple!usc!merlin.usc.edu!aludra.usc.edu!kailanhw Sun Jul 16 16:29:22 PDT 1989
Article 20327 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!eos!ames!apple!usc!merlin.usc.edu!aludra.usc.edu!kailanhw
>From: kailanhw@aludra.usc.edu (Kailanhw Hwang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: TIBET, PRC flag, and other ethnic minorities
Message-ID: <4310@merlin.usc.edu>
Date: 7 Jul 89 05:12:32 GMT
References: <65422@yale-celray.yale.UUCP> <14885@ut-emx.UUCP> <113772@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> <15186@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> <2460@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu> <25471@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU> <364@cbnewsd.ATT.COM>
Sender: news@merlin.usc.edu
Reply-To: kailanhw@aludra.usc.edu (Kailanhw Hwang)
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 39
In article <364@cbnewsd.ATT.COM> jentto@cbnewsd.ATT.COM (jen-lie.n.ho,ihp,) writes:
>>The flag is called "blue sky, white sun, red ground [from the martyrs'
>>blood]" flag; nowhere is "star" mentioned.
>>...
>>- Ching Tsun <chou@cs.ucla.edu>
>
>The "red ground" also reflected the communist influence - so I heard.
This is really interesting.
Below is from my vague memory about ROC flag. If somthing incorrects,
please correct me.
The first Flag of ROC is 5 color banner flag.
After Mr. Chiang united China(?) or before(?) they change it to KMT flag
and shrink it to one forth in upper left coener and add blood color in the rest
of the flag. The blue color is sky which represent X.
The white sun has tweleve radiances which represents Y.
X may be equal and Y may be peace or reverse.
The blood color is our ancestors' blood who overturn Chin and build ROC,
according to KMT. The blood color also represents indiscriminate love.
The original KMT flag was designed by revolutioner Lu How Dun(Lu as Road,
Dun as east in translation) who is follower of Dr. Sun Yat-sen father of
Republic of China, First president of ROC, president of KMT, author of
Three Prinicples of People.
Also, Dr. Sun at-sen once said "Communism is not suitable for China" which
was cited most by KMT. He is really a farsighted person and those who don't
believe in him suffer.
Pro-KMT-ers, this is a good time to spread KMT's central theory- Three
Principles. Why don't you give this book in free to those communisists
who are trapped in America. KMT catchs your good chance and don't be so
'old big'.
| We want a Taiwanese new China, not TI , not red China, not KMT's old China. |
| Above is my opinion only, and USC has not enough money pay me for this. |
| Kailan Hwang in real world. |
| Smart Mail : kailanhw@usc.edu |
From polya!shelby!eos!ames!apple!usc!merlin.usc.edu!aludra.usc.edu!kailanhw Sun Jul 16 16:30:03 PDT 1989
Article 20328 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!eos!ames!apple!usc!merlin.usc.edu!aludra.usc.edu!kailanhw
>From: kailanhw@aludra.usc.edu (Kailanhw Hwang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: /*no suitable title*/
Message-ID: <4312@merlin.usc.edu>
Date: 7 Jul 89 06:01:19 GMT
References: <ZHAO.89Jul6185728@kythera.nmsu.edu>
Sender: news@merlin.usc.edu
Reply-To: kailanhw@aludra.usc.edu (Kailanhw Hwang)
Distribution: soc.culture.china
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 52
In article <ZHAO.89Jul6185728@kythera.nmsu.edu> zhao@nmsu.edu (Z. Zhao) writes:
>
>
> Everybody will agree that there is no absolute freedom,
> equality and fraternity. Is there any absolute human rights,
> majority rule, self-determination ... in the world ?
>
> Can you go to any country or place where you self-determine
> to go ?
>
> Will a decision from the majority rule be against some human
> rights ?
>
> Sorry. My problem may not fit SCC. It is not about j-1 visa,
> not 6.4 TAM massacre, not Tibet, not government agents ...
> But, it is from reading SCC.
>
>
We, human not god. We are not perfect but pursut perfect.
We dream and we have goal. We walk toward our goal not away from our goal.
There are a lot of dreamers who smart enough to organize their dreams
and speak out. Some dreamers prefer peaceful movement, some dreamers
are radical and kill to step forward their goal.
Some believe there exists a God, some believe there exists many Gods,
Some believe there exists countless Gods, some believe there exists
no God, some believes nothing.
Some believe in violent, some believe in non-violent.
Some kill, some love, some hate, some love or kill, some hate and kill.
We choose and our offspring suffer or enjoy from our decision.
Can you not be careful to make such decision.
Now, it shows up whose ancestors had made the right decision.
Not yet, there still a long way to go and we still can change the destination
of our offspring.
Don't blame Mr. Li Pon, he is only human. He believe and did it.
Chinese, you believe too, than why blame him.
You all believe in Class consciousness and Class struggle.
There should be no nation only exists class.
Your cental theory is to destroy those class enemy.
Mr. Li Pon , 'What's wrong to kill those people's enemies?'
Some of the points above are made in scastic way.
Flamers, please read it again carefully, otherwise 'cat flame > /tty/null'.
| We want a Taiwanese new China, not TI , not red China, not KMT's old China. |
| Above is my opinion only, and USC has not enough money pay me for this. |
| Kailan Hwang in real world. |
| Smart Mail : kailanhw@usc.edu |
From polya!shelby!decwrl!purdue!haven!uvaarpa!hudson!jl7q Sun Jul 16 16:30:33 PDT 1989
Article 20330 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!purdue!haven!uvaarpa!hudson!jl7q
>From: jl7q@hudson.acc.virginia.edu (li jinghong)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Last post about the T-shirt : Lone man vs the tank ..
Message-ID: <1719@hudson.acc.virginia.edu>
Date: 7 Jul 89 04:53:44 GMT
Reply-To: jl7q@hudson.acc.Virginia.EDU (li jinghong)
Organization: University of Virginia, Charlottesville
Lines: 34
Last post for the T-shirt : Lone man vs the tank
1. Since the first post (6/29) about this T-shirt, I'v
got many e-mails from all over the world. Here, I'd
like to say thanks to all of you who supported
me, and helped me in many ways.
2. Up to Today, July 6, more than 280 T-shirts have
been sent out to all over the world. Many people
ordered more once, because the well-known picture
and the very nice design attracted many more people.
3. On July 3, I sent two T-shirts to President Bush
and Mrs. Bush, asked them to wear the shirts with us.
4. Due to the lot of work for mailing the shirts, I will
not be able to spend too much time on it any longer.
Therefore :
a. I will only be able to send for the order of
50 or more T-shirts.
b. The price will be $6.5 each include everything.
And I suggest that you sale them by $8-$10 each,
so that you can also raise money for some fundations.
c. Since there is no more left in stock, it will need
four to five days to get your location.
Again, thank you all very much.
Sincerely
Jinghong Li
July 6, 1989
at University of Virginia
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!csd4.milw.wisc.edu!leah!bingvaxu!sunybcs!xiaofei Sun Jul 16 16:31:04 PDT 1989
Article 20332 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!csd4.milw.wisc.edu!leah!bingvaxu!sunybcs!xiaofei
>From: xiaofei@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Xiaofei Wang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Nomination For The Man Of The Year On Time Magazine
Message-ID: <7638@cs.Buffalo.EDU>
Date: 7 Jul 89 08:03:07 GMT
Sender: news@cs.Buffalo.EDU
Reply-To: xiaofei@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Xiaofei Wang)
Organization: SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science
Lines: 19
I am posting for V102QN28@UBVMSC.CC.BUFFALO.EDU,
TO CONTINUE OUR STRUGGLE FOR democracy in China, It would be very helpful if
we can keeping using the American media. We can nominate Chai Ling as for Nobel
Peace Prize, We can also nominate the brave Chinese student Wang wei Lin, for
Man of the Year on TIME manganese. please remember, Deng has been there twice.
On July 10th issue, TIME reported 35 votes for Wang Wei Lin as Man of the Year
ALREADY. It is very hopeful for him being accepted. please write to Time
manganese to show your support.
As I mentioned earlier, the nomination was proposed by 35 readers from Time
magazine and published on the recent issue. It indicated that Time magazine
itself was willing to considering it and it is a reminder to all of its readers
and all the Chinese and American people who support the movement in China. We
have the ability to do this if nothing else we can do . I appeal to All the
Chinese here in the U.S to write to TIME magazine to show our wholehearted
support for this nomination. It is the right thing to do NOW. Please write to
TIME
P.O. Box 61190, tampa, FL 33661-1190
From polya!shelby!bloom-beacon!atrp.mit.edu!pshen Sun Jul 16 16:31:14 PDT 1989
Article 20333 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!bloom-beacon!atrp.mit.edu!pshen
>From: pshen@atrp.mit.edu (Paul Shen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re↑2: another-joke
Message-ID: <12479@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>
Date: 7 Jul 89 07:30:25 GMT
References: <AYgs5ry00UiWE6p2Qm@andrew.cmu.edu>
Sender: daemon@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU
Lines: 15
yz04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Yuting Zhang) writes:
>An very good joke!!!
>It is true, in China, if you want voice yourself somewhat against the
>government, the only place where you can do something is---the BATHROOM!
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
Are you sure the water tube is not tapped? :-)
Paul
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Email: pshen@atrp.mit.edu | Paul Shen |
| Address: MIT, 36-665, Cambridge, Ma 02139 | Tel. (617) 864-3210 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcvax!ukc!cam-cl!yj Sun Jul 16 16:31:47 PDT 1989
Article 20336 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcvax!ukc!cam-cl!yj
>From: yj@cl.cam.ac.uk (Yuejun Jiang on jenny)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Happy (not sad) to have quitted SCC - a final fling
Message-ID: <817@scaup.cl.cam.ac.uk>
Date: 6 Jul 89 00:18:37 GMT
Sender: news@cl.cam.ac.uk
Reply-To: yj@cl.cam.ac.uk (Yuejun Jiang)
Organization: U of Cambridge Comp Lab, UK
Lines: 20
Posted: Thu Jul 6 01:18:37 1989
Since I declared to quit SCC sometimes ago, I have received overwhelming
support around the world for my view on the tactics of democracy movement.
More than 30 people wrote to me to symathesize with my opinion, less than three
are against. Since I cannot afford to reply all the mails, I decide
to express my thanks in SCC. I am glad that my article has aroused
so much interest (or storm). At least people start to think about
the lessions learnt from radical approaches to democracy in China.
I think a lot of people who agreed with my view did not bother to
say it in public. All I can say here is that hottest heads make
biggest noise. In any mass movement, hardliners need to be balanced
by moderates. I am trying to be a moderate if not a conservative.
Somebody have got to warn people against reasoning according to emotion
rather than rationality. I think this purpose has been served.
So I feel happy (not sad) to have quitted SCC now.
Thank you all for your comments.
ps. future correspondence to my mail address as I cannot read SCC.
From polya!shelby!decwrl!pyramid!ctnews!mitisft!kemnitz Sun Jul 16 16:31:56 PDT 1989
Article 20337 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!pyramid!ctnews!mitisft!kemnitz
>From: kemnitz@mitisft.Convergent.COM (Gregory Kemnitz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Use Computer Viruses to attack Chinese Bureaucracy
Summary: A formal retraction of this idea
Message-ID: <764@mitisft.Convergent.COM>
Date: 7 Jul 89 08:19:56 GMT
References: <745@mitisft.Convergent.COM> <758@mitisft.Convergent.COM> <710@bnr-fos.UUCP> <669@eecea.eece.ksu.edu>
Reply-To: kemnitz@mitisft.UUCP (Greg Kemnitz)
Organization: Unisys Network Computing Group, San Jose
Lines: 24
For the following reasons, I would like to inform SCC that distributing viruses
to China is not a good idea for the following reasons:
1. The police data systems are likely to be rather well-protected.
2. It would set a dangerous precedent, as the open countries in the West
are extremely vulnurable to such attacks, more so than China, since
computers are used relatively little in China as compared with the West.
3. Poorly written viruses could cause undesirable side-effects. Unfortunately
it would be hard to "police" any "virus offensive". Also, these poorly
written viruses could spread all over the world.
4. It would be too slow to distribute. By the time an *effective* virus could
worm its way through the police data systems I was thinking of, most of the
"counterrevolutionaries" would already be in jail or worse.
There are other reasons. These are the major ones.
----------------------------------+--------------------------------------
Greg Kemnitz | Software without hardware is an idea.
kemnitz@Convergent.COM | Hardware without software is a space heater.
|
| --Unknown author
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF Sun Jul 16 16:32:17 PDT 1989
Article 20338 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF
>From: SHENF@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Zhiyong Shen)
Newsgroups: osu.chinese,soc.culture.china
Subject: Yan'an People Support Democratic Movement -- May This Cheer Friends Up
Message-ID: <2557@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 7 Jul 89 11:30:30 GMT
Sender: news@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu
Organization: Ohio State University
Lines: 16
Xref: polya soc.culture.china:20338
An Iowan teacher just returned from her teaching post in Yan'an (cradle
of the CCP power). Yan'an is still a poor rural area and has only one
college (Yan'an Normal College). According to CCP's own investigation
Yan'an is still one of the poorest places in China. Yan'an in northern
Shaanxi province also happens to be one of the remote areas in China.
Yet the Yan'an people know about the Beijing Massacre. The students went on
strike for two weeks and demonstrated together with local people after the
Massacre. The Yan'an people who used to be the staunchest supporters of CCP
are now on the side of democracy. How long could Deng and his accomplices last?
Many friends are worried about the success of CCP news blackout and lying
campaign. May this little piece cheer you up a bit. Please do not relax in
your efforts of breaking the news blackout, though.
Zhiyong
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!hkucs.UUCP!kwchan Sun Jul 16 16:32:34 PDT 1989
Article 20339 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!hkucs.UUCP!kwchan
>From: kwchan@hkucs.UUCP (Chan Ki Wa)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: China & HK News
Message-ID: <8907072242.AA04097@hkucs.HKU.HK>
Date: 7 Jul 89 22:42:28 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 279
Source : South China Morning Post
Date : 7th July 89
Send time : 2:45 pm HKT
Sender : hkucs!kwchan@uunet.uu.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------
[South China Morning Post, Friday, July 7, 1989]
TWO LIBERALS APPOINTED IN RESHUFFLE
[By Willy Wo-lap Lam]
Two prominent members of the Chinese Communist Party's liberal wing were
appointed ministers in a reshuffle of the State Council.
The personnel change was ratified by the Eighth Session of the National
People's Congress Standing Committee, which ended yesterday.
Mr Ruan Chongwu, a vice-minister of the State Commission of Science and
Technology (SCST), became the new Labour Minister. Mr Ruan, 56, a former
vice-mayor of Shanghai and counsellor in the Chinese Embassy in West
Germany, replaced Mr Luo Gan. The post had been vacant since Mr Luo became
State Council secretary-general late last year.
Former Jiangsu Governor Miss Gu Xiulian was appointed Minister of Chemical
Industry, replacing 65-year-old Qin Zhongda, who is retiring.
The appointements of Mr Ruan and Miss Gu, who are identified with the
liberal policies of former party chiefs Mr Hu Yaobang and Mr Zhao Ziyang,
are interpreted by analysts as an assurance to domestic and international
opinion that China's reform and open-door policy will remain intact.
"Senior Deng Xiaoping is sticking to his long-standing tactic of balancing
the disparate factions in the party," said a Western diplomat. "To ensure
that his modernisation program stays on course, he is retaining liberal
officials who had been close to Mr Zhao Ziyang and Mr Hu Yaobang."
Appointed Public Security Minister in 1985 by the late Mr Hu Yaobang, Mr
Ruan was sacked in early 1987 for failing to contain widespread student
demonstration", and "has rich experience in both provincial and state
work".
Miss Gu, 52, gained international recognition for turning Jiangsu into
China's richest province. She was specially noted for attracting foreign
capital to, and developing private enterprise in, the East China province.
However, the liberal faction suffered a setback when State Councillor Mr
Chen Junsheng failed to be nominated as the new Agriculture Minister.
Chinese analysts had earlier expected that Mr Chen would replace incumbent
Mr He Kang, 66, who had expressed a wish to retire.
A right-hand-man of Mr Zhao's, Mr Chen played a pivotal role in
implementing reform.
The Eighth Session of the NPC Standing Committee, which closed yesterday
after eight days of deliberations, endorsed the conservative line of tight
ideological control and strict obedience to the CCP.
The meeting ratified the report on the "counter-revolutionary rebellion"
delivered by Mr Chen Xitong.
The hard-line Beijing mayor noted that the rebellion was a result of the
collusion between bourgeois-liberal conspirators in China and reactionary,
anti-Chinese political forces in the West.
The legislators endorsed in principle a new law on assemblies, parades and
demonstrations.
The Eighth Session became a platform for conservative elements to attack
Mr Zhao.
Legislator Hu Jiwei, who collected signatures of more than 50 NPC deputies
for an emergency meeting, was also savagely attacked.
===========================================================================
CHENGDU ARSONISTS GET DEATH SENTENCE
Two more people have been sentenced to death for rioting offences in the
south-western city of Chengdu, following the Chinese army's suppression of
the democracy movement in Beijing.
The reports did not say whether the death sentences had been carried out.
At least 27 people have been executed in China, many for offences linked to
the violence, since the army moved into Beijing on June 3 and cleared
Tiananmen Square of protesters.
The July 2 edition of the Sichuan Daily reported that Wang Guiyuan and
Zhou Xiangcheng were sentenced to death on July 1 at a public trial by the
Chengdu Intermediate People's Court.
They were charged with burning vehicles during rioting in the provincial
capital on June 5. Thousands of people poured into the streets in response
to the Beijing violence, setting fires, throwing rocks and ransacking
stores and hotels.
The case was passed on to the Sichuan High People's Court for review, the
Sichuan Daily said.
Yesterday's Beijing Evening News also reported prison sentences for five
people charged with "disturbing social order" during the pro-democracy
protests.
A Beijing district court sentenced Yi Jingyao, 20, a driver for a Beijing
city government office, to four years in prison and Tan Minglu, also a
driver, to 3.5 years' imprisonment for trying to incite workers at the
Capital Iron and Steel Co, Beijing's largest steel plant, to join the
protests.
The incident occurred early on May 20 as troops moved into the city before
martial law was declared later in the day. The two allegedly tried to
persuade steel workers to join citizen blockades on the city's fringes to
keep troops out.
In another case, the Beijing Evening News reported that the Miyun County
People's Court sentenced Chen Lianru to 10 years in jail and Chen Yonghong
and Wang Guangxing to eight years each for robbery.
The trio, who claimed to be students, came from a village in Hebei
Province and carried out an armed robbery on May 24. They were arrested
the next day, the paper said.
The Communist Party newspaper People's Daily carried a tough editorial on
Wednesday, attacking the US House of Representatives for approving new
economic sanctions last week against China.
The purpose of the two months of pro-democracy protests, the newspaper
charged, was "to overthrow the rule of the Chinese Communist Party" and
turn China "into a capitalist republic".
- United Press International and
Agence France Presse
-----------------------------------------------------
Crying, is our motherland!
Crying, are our mothers, our brother and sisters!
Crying, our students and scholars in alien countries!
Where is the hope of our nation!
-----------------------------------------------------
[South China Morning Post, Friday, July 7, 1989]
US-BASED GROUP TO SET UP HK OFFICE
[By S.Y.Wai]
The New York-based Chinese political group recently branded by Beijing as
the main force behind the "counter-revolutionary" pro-democracy movement, is
setting up a branch office in Hongkong.
The Chinese Alliance for Democracy's deputy chairman, Bell Wong, and
general secretary, Peter Min Wong, are in town preparing for inaugurating
the office within one month.
Yesterday, they announced plans to build up a strong membership here and
use Hongkong as a base to operate a Chinese daily newspaper promoting its
liberal ideas to the mainland.
They said the first thing the office would do would be to promote the
Alliance to the Hongkong public, because its image had been greatly
distorted by Beijing as a subversive group.
Both Mr Wongs declined to comment whether the office would strengthen
Beijing's belief that Hongkong was part of the "counter-revolutionary"
forces which aimed at bringing down the Chinese Government and toppling the
leadership of the Communist Party.
"We are not anti-communist. Many people have suggested the Alliance
should become a political party and work to bring down the Communist
regime," Mr Bell Wong said.
"But we believed we should compete with the Communist Party in a fair
manner and let the Chinese people choose," he said.
Mr Wong said the Alliance fully supported Chinese dissident intellectual
Yan Jiaqi and student leader Wu'erkaixi course to unite overseas Chinese to
work for a democratic China.
Mr Yan and Wu'erkaixi announced on Tuesday in France the formation of the
China Student and Democracy Movement Joint Committee, a coalition for
campaigning for democracy in China.
"Alliance chairman Hu Ping in New York and Wu'erkaixi in France have
recently agreed in principle over the telephone that they should join
forces," Mr Wong said.
"And Mr Hu has already instructed the Alliance's 39 sub-offices around the
world to support Wu'erkaixi and Yan's course," he added.
Mr Peter Min Wong conceded that operation a radio station in Hongkong to
promote democracy would be impossible, but he believed they could publish a
newspaper here instead.
He called upon all overseas Chinese to help finance the newspaper which
would be published in Hongkong and in the United States simultaneously.
The Hongkong office would also set up a rescue centre which would be in
close touch with international human rights groups such as Amnesty
International to support demands for freeing mainlanders who are persecuted
by Beijing for taking part in the pro-democracy movement.
===========================================================================
Island plan not ruled out by OMELCO
The possibility of Hong Kong buying an island in Scotland or Australia as a
home of last resort for the territory's residents has been discussed by
Executive and Legislative Councillors.
The Omelco special working group on nationality, headed by Executive Councillor
Rosanna Tam Wong Yick-ming, spent most of its time at a two hour meeting
yesterday discussing the idea.
Even though members considered the island option as not "very feasible", they
did not rule out the idea. Instead, the councillors agreed to shelve the
proposal for the time being.
Those who objected to the idea said it would contradict the "Hong Kong is Our
Home" message put forward by Omelco in its nationality campaign.
The idea had been raised in previous sessions, but was not discussed in detail
as councillors decided to focus on their campaign for the right of abode in UK
for Hongkong's 3.25 million British subjects.
"At that time, any suggestion like this was deemed inappropriate. But after the
visit by Sir Geoffrey Howe, it seems that the chance of achieving out goal is
not as bright," said a councillor.
Most members now look at the island options as both a plausible alternative or
an embarrassing gesture to force Britain to do more for Hong Kong.
Some of the 15 councillors who attended the session went as far as suggesting
that a clarification be sought with the Government on whether its huge reserve
fund could be used for such a purpose.
"I raised the island suggestion for discussion because people have proposed to
me that this is the only way which could restore Hongkong people's confidence
and retain our traditions, the lifestyle, and freedoms of Hongkong," said
one councillor.
"In a way this is feasible because the Chinese Government has indicated that
it would not try to bar Hongkong people from leaving."
Another councillor said: "My major consideration is whether the idea is feasible
If we still have confidence in Hongkong, we should stay behind. But if we are
desperate, the buying an island is better than nothing."
Others were worried Hongkong people would have to contend with a Robinson
Crusoe-type lifestyle.
"We know it is not feasible since we cannot simply build another Hongkong on
island. What we have here is the mass transit railway system, an international
airport and an enormous public housing project," a member said.
After putting aside the island proposal, the councillors suggested that
Omelco invite about 70 British parliamentarians to visit Hongkong this summer.
The councillors are hopeful that the MPs would be more sympathetic towards
Hongkong after they had been here themselves.
It is understood that Tory back-bencher Robert Adley, who warned that British
might pull out before 1997 if Hongkong became ungovernable, was not on the
invite list.
It is believed that at today's full, in-house meeting, councillors will finalise
plans to send a second delegation to lobby British politicians before the House
of Commons'debate on Hongkong later this month.
They will also discuss plans to set up an office in London. Initial estimates
suggest that the rent of the office alone could cost up to $20,000 a month.
The councillors are prepared to allocate about $5 million to sustain the work
of the office at least until September.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!usc!spica.usc.edu!kriz Sun Jul 16 16:33:05 PDT 1989
Article 20341 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!usc!spica.usc.edu!kriz
>From: kriz@spica.usc.edu (Dennis Kriz)
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.china
Subject: CALL FOR A VOTE ON soc.rights.human
Message-ID: <18325@usc.edu>
Date: 7 Jul 89 13:31:19 GMT
Sender: news@usc.edu
Reply-To: kriz@spica.usc.edu (Dennis Kriz)
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 62
Xref: polya news.groups:10852 soc.culture.china:20341
NOTE: IF YOU'VE SEEN THIS NOTE SEVERAL TIMES ... I apologize ... have had
some phenomenal problems posting this note today <sigh... REAL BIG sigh>.
This is an official call for a vote on a new newsgroup "soc.rights.human"
[Voting will start on June 30, 1989 and end on July 31, 1989. I will also
repost this note several times during this period, so that it is seen by all
who might want to vote].
The heirarchial nature of the name was selected to allow other "soc.rights"
groups to be formed at a later date (eg. "soc.rights.animal" comes to mind).
The group would be unmoderated. This so as to ensure no bias ...
And the group would serve the following two purposes:
(1) Would provide a rapid and highly visible conduit for information concerning
individuals who face possible mistreatment (or worse) by authorities around
the world. It is my hope that organizations like Amnesty International will
post their urgent action appeals directly on this newsgroup. Anyone with
similar information about someone in dire need of assistance, would have the
same access. The newsgroup would also allow someone to find the best possible
channels for providing further assistance for those in such need.
(2) On a broader level, the group would provide a forum for discussing human
rights issues and strategies in general. In the 1980s we have witnessed the
rise/fall/resurrection of Solidarity in Poland, the South African Rising, the
people power revolution in the Phillipines, the Palestinian Intifada, glasnost
in the Soviet Union, and most recently the rise of the pro-democracy movement
in China. In addition, Latin America, and South East Asia remain in the news
concerning terrible human rights abuses (torture, forced emigration, etc).
There are common threads in all these struggles, and this group would
facilitate their exploration.
To vote:
(1) Reply to this note
(2) State specifically "I vote for this group as proposed"
or "I vote against this group as proposed"
(3) Voting will begin June 30, 1989 and end July 31, 1989.
(4) IMPORTANT: I MUST POST THE E-MAIL ADDRESSES/names (if available) of those
who voted, when I post the final results. That is the procedure <sigh>.
I post the warning to inform the Chinese and possibly other foreign
students about this now. Due to this:
(a) Be warned: I WILL NOT COUNT *ANY* OF THE VOTES THAT I HAVE RECEIVED
BEFORE I CALLED FOR THE VOTE. (I won't play with people's lives over this).
(b) NORTH AMERICAN/EUROPEAN net-readers. Whether this group sinks or
swims will most likely be up to you. KEEP THAT IN MIND... PLEASE.
(5) For the group to be established, 100 more "yes" votes have to be recieved
than "no" votes.
dennis kriz@skat.usc.edu
From polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!bill Sun Jul 16 16:33:20 PDT 1989
Article 20343 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!bill
>From: bill@ut-emx.UUCP (Bill Jefferys)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Xiong Jie == The Taiwanese Yuan Mu
Message-ID: <14961@ut-emx.UUCP>
Date: 7 Jul 89 14:46:04 GMT
References: <65044@yale-celray.yale.UUCP> <2158@husc6.harvard.edu> <12469@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <7083@medusa.cs.purdue.edu>
Reply-To: bill@emx.UUCP (Bill Jefferys)
Organization: UTexas Computation Center, Austin, Texas
Lines: 23
Posted: Fri Jul 7 09:46:04 1989
In article <7083@medusa.cs.purdue.edu> chuang@cs.purdue.EDU (Jung-Hong Chuang) writes:
#In article <12469@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>, joe@athena.mit.edu (Joseph C Wang) writes:
#> In article <11762@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com> cac@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (Andy Chou[rs]) writes:
#>
#> >Is Communist party legal in this country? I mean United States.
#>
#> Yes. The Supreme Court has ruled that restricting the Communist Party is
#> unconstitutional.
#
#Was CP banned in US in certain period of time? Why? Because CP was dangerous
#to US at that time? or some other reasons.
It was due to hysteria. In the 1950s, certain politicians tried
to increase their power by promoting anticommmunism (partly in
reaction to the so-called "loss" of China, which was blamed
by some politicians, notably Senator Joseph McCarthy, on communists
in the US State Department). Many people who had had connections
with the Communist Party in the 1930s were persecuted, lost their
jobs, etc. It was a pretty bad time. Fortunately, our institutions
were strong enough to survive and eventually to overcome the
worst aspects of the Red Scare of the 1950s.
Bill Jefferys
From polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU!yj1 Sun Jul 16 16:33:44 PDT 1989
Article 20345 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU!yj1
>From: yj1@CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Yuan Jiang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Use Computer Viruses to attack Chinese Bureaucracy
Message-ID: <8907071531.AA03008@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: 7 Jul 89 15:31:31 GMT
References: <764@mitisft.Convergent.COM>
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 7
In article <764@mitisft.Convergent.COM> you write:
>For the following reasons, I would like to inform SCC that distributing viruses
I believe the computers used by the police and national security dept. are
not connected to the ones in education and research (not for weapon reseach)
institutes. This makes it easier to target on those computers we want to
interrupt. On the other hand it's difficult for any one outside to implant
the viruses. It has to be done by someone inside.
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!buacca.BITNET!phy97xn Sun Jul 16 16:34:29 PDT 1989
Article 20347 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!buacca.BITNET!phy97xn
>From: phy97xn@buacca.BITNET
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: a letter from Europe
Message-ID: <8907071554.AA02267@jade.berkeley.edu>
Date: 7 Jul 89 15:50:03 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 50
I am posting for a friend who received the letter.
-------
7-JUL-1989 09:49:37.67
Hi,
How are you these days? Having been totally disappointed, I guess
you must have given up all your mood in taking part in any activities
there.
Here, however, we have been continuing our "revolutionary" work. Secretely,
of course, because that the control of the ambassy here is far more strict
than in the U.S. .We have been holding open activities in collecting donations
for re-building in Brussels the statue of liberty which was destroyed in
Tiananman squre. The aim is threefolds: to encourage people in home, to comme
-morate those sacrificed, and to show our gesture of silent defiance. In the
meanwhile,we have been organizing articles and are going to edit a small book-
let, to sponsor chinese people here to start their theoretical and historical
thinking about the past and the future of china. Could you inform me what's
going on around you?
One thing important. Here we have comfirmed the news that Chai Ling
has been nominated by two senators in Norway as the candidate of Nobel prize
for peace this year. We think that this is of great significance. It will push
the government of Li Peng to the opposition of the whole world longing for
peace and mark a glorious point for the democratic movement in China. Also
it will utterly reveal the truth behind all the lies of the goverment and
awake people in China in a thourogh way. Nevertheless the difficulties for
Chai Ling to win are a lot. One obvious competitor is Mr.Gobachov. So we
should do things to help as far as possible. The possibilities always exist.
We can launch a compaign of prepaganda in both Europe and North America by
revealing the people at least the following things, for exemple:
i) Nowadays, tragedies of any nations in the world would be tragedies for
the whole human beings, since the world has been becoming increasingly
small. So nobody should regard what's happening in China is none of his own
bussiness.
ii) The awarding of Nobel peace price to Chai Ling will not merely convey
the praise of the people to the chinese students for what they have done. It
will also have un-expectable good influence to the future of China, hence also
to the world. (you can cite all the foregoing significances, for exemple).
iii) As a prominant representative of the chinese students who had been
demanding democracy in such an amirably peaceful and self-sacrificing way,
she has shown us the eternal longing of human beings for harmony and peace
and deserves to be awarded with the Nobel prize as well.
So could you pass this idea as soon as possible to the student activists in
your campus and urge them to pass it to others as well? If there will be a
compaign in U.S., so much the better. Do remember this.
Enough for today. I will talk to you later.
Before this mail is sent, I heard from a friend that the over-sea students in
the U.S. seem have already begun the foregoing compaign. Anyway I will still
send this to you for making sure.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!uxc.cso.uiuc.edu!tank!ping@rover.bsd.uchicago.edu Sun Jul 16 16:34:47 PDT 1989
Article 20350 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!uxc.cso.uiuc.edu!tank!ping@rover.bsd.uchicago.edu
>From: ping@rover.bsd.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT FROM UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO
Message-ID: <4321@tank.uchicago.edu>
Date: 7 Jul 89 16:14:33 GMT
Sender: news@tank.uchicago.edu
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Chicago - Dept. Rad. Onc. and Med. Physics
Lines: 73
ORGANIZATION AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO TO ALL CHINESE STUDENT ORGANIZATION
IN THE U.S.
Chinese Student Democracy Organizations in the U.S. Universities:
It is the desire of all and the call of the history to hold a U.S.-wide
meeting of Chinese student organization representatives and to form a united
group nationwide. In order to expedite the preparation of this meeting, it is
proposed by several universities in the west coast that a secretarial
university be selected with democratic procedures so that it can collect,
summarize, feedback, and fuse all suggestions about the meeting. We fully
support this proposal.
The University of Chicago Chinese student organization is willing to be a
candidate of the secretarial University. In addition, we would like to suggest
that the secretary selected presently is only ad hoc for the preparation of the
meeting and an offical one for the meeting itself should be selected during the
meeting.
If the University of Chicago is selected as the meeting preparation
secretary, we guarantee that, under the supervision of other universities,
we will accurately, effectively and efficiently accomplish the task of
archiving, summarizing, organizing, feedback and vote collecting of various
opinions and other organizational work to ensure the meeting to be promptly
held.
Our university has several qualifications:
1. The location of the U. of Chicago is suitable for the meeting and
we have been collaborating and communicating with many other
universities in the U.S.
2. We have our own office, hotline, and fax line and we have personnel
and material resources for secretarial work.
3. Actually, in the past few weeks, we have been coordinating with
other universities involved in the meeting preparation. We have learned
and summarized many different opinions about the meeting. For the
continuity of the work, our experience can speed up things.
4. We have an unified Chinese student organization. One task of the
organization, as unanimously passed by the organization committee, is
to follow the self sacrificing spirit of the martyrs to push forward
the meeting. In light of the lack of a consensus, we have decided to
work on the coordination of different opinions in order to achieve a
suitable compromise and contribute to the unification.
5. If the U. of Chicago is not selected as the meeting preparation
secretary, we will be happy to support any other university selected.
If the U. of Chicago is selected, we will timely solicit nationwide opinions
on the following issues.
1. The schedule and place of the meeting.
2. The scale of the meeting, keeping in mind the balance between the
representativity and efficiency.
3. The choice of representatives.
4. The drafting of meeting documents, including "meeting agenda and
rule", "the necessity, technicality and structure of a nationwide
organization", "about national task force on several projects (lobby,
nobel prize, radio station...". The drafts will be sent out to each
university.
Thank you very much for your support.
The Chinese Student Organization at the Universiyt of Chicago.
July 7, 1987.
P.S. The above is a quick translation. Please contact our hot line for the
accurate Chinese version.
(312) 702-6773 (phone)
(312) 702-6780 (fax)
From polya!shelby!agate!pasteur!ames!ncar!tank!news Sun Jul 16 16:36:10 PDT 1989
Article 20352 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!pasteur!ames!ncar!tank!news
>From: news@tank.uchicago.edu (NetNews)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: boycott
Message-ID: <4322@tank.uchicago.edu>
Date: 7 Jul 89 16:34:16 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Chicago
Lines: 5
Having thought about boycotting Japanese product, I decided to get an American
car. Can someone suggest a U.S. auto maker who doesn't do any business with
China?
Thanks.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!B.GP.CS.CMU.EDU!Dave.Touretzky Sun Jul 16 16:36:53 PDT 1989
Article 20354 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!B.GP.CS.CMU.EDU!Dave.Touretzky
>From: Dave.Touretzky@B.GP.CS.CMU.EDU
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Insight on China
Message-ID: <Added.IYf6Lam00Ui38TZ049@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 1 Jul 89 06:32:53 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 99
A while back, someone posted an observation that Insight Magazine was
totally ignoring the pro-democracry uprising in China. It is true, as
George Gusciora pointed out, that they *have* run a few articles on the
situation. And they have referred to the incident at Tienanmen Square as a
"massacre", which is as strong a term as anyone could hope for. But on the
whole I have to agree that their coverage of recent events in China has been
far less thorough than other news sources. Until yesterday.
Yesterday I read an editorial in the magazine that made me think about China
in ways that other publications had failed to do. It shows, I think, that
the magazine is true to its name. The editorial is reproduced below. If
you don't have the patience to read the whole thing, here is a summary of
two key points. First, there is evidence that Zhao Ziyang's faction in the
government was behind the demonstrations from the beginning, using them as
an attempted power play. Second, the people likely to be running China
after Deng passes are not the ones the American media is focusing on.
================================================================
Sound Bites of One Hand Clapping
Kirk E. Oberfeld
INSIGHT, July 10, 1989
The grand Chinese opera in Tiananmen Square was high drama. And television
rushed to cover it, drama being its stock in trade. CBS, ABC, NBC and CNN
covered every statement the pro-democracy students made, shot pictures of
every waving flag, every noble replica of a democratic icon and reported
every rumor sweeping the lobby of a Beijing hotel. But somehow they missed
the stories behind the camera angles.
With all their technology trained on a few hundred square yards of Beijing
concrete, they failed for days to take much note of the amazing organization
of the protesters. From the first evening, trucks arrived with hot food and
blankets for the students. Why, those kids even had a security system,
complete with color-coded identity cards.
It should not have taken overdeveloped powers of deduction to realize that
someone in the government was lending aid and comfort to the people
occupying the square. And even a passing familiarity with players in
Chinese politics should have led them to suspect that that someone might
have been Zhao Ziyang, the now-purged general secretary of the Communist
Party.
Being in the broadcast biz, the correspondents also monitored Chinese TV.
But, again, they did so more to follow events than to understand them.
Midway through the occupation, they began to take note of the positive tone
being taken toward the demonstrators by their Chinese counterparts. But not
for several days did they deduce that this might have been because Zhao's
chief ally on the Politburo, Hu Qili, ran the Information Ministry.
Whatever American televsion discovered during this period, it persisted in
characterizing the situation in Tiananmen Square as a spontaneous uprising
against the government and the Communist Party rather than what it almost
certainly was: a struggle between powerful elements within the government
and party themselves.
One might assume that this was because television, by its nature, is more
concerned with style than substance, with the dramatic picture rather than
the thoughtful examination of people and events. But perhaps it was also
because the TV types managed to learn few names of major players. Now,
Chinese names are difficult to remember, let alone pronounce, but out of a
billion one might think a reporter could remember, say, a dozen.
In the early going the names heard were only the most familiar: Deng
Xiaoping, the senior leader; Li Peng, the premier; Zhao, the party chief.
Later on we did hear mention of Hu, the information minister, and Qiao Shi,
the security chief widely expected to succeeed Zhao. But that was pretty
much it.
Little or no mention was made of Jian Zemin, the Shanghai party boss who did
succeed Zhao, or Qin Jiwei, the defense minister who at first questioned the
use of the military to crack down on the demonstrators but then seemingly
switched his allegiance from Zhao to the hard-liners who emerged victorious.
And if mention was made at all of the role played by Yang Shankgun, China's
president and general secretary of the military commission, it was in a
whisper unheard by most of the American viewing audience.
The hard-line 27th Army that routed the demonstrators is personally aligned
to Yang, and the head of the politicial department whose commissars control
the People's Liberation Army is Yang's younger brother Yang Baibing. Yang
the elder, a stranger still to the American television viewer, may well be
China's next paramount leader. And the brothers Yang may well already be
the most powerful duo on the mainland.
Why, American television even mussed its chance to cover a Chinese soap
oepra. One of China's rising stars is Li Tieying, the education
commissioner, who just happens to be the son of Deng's first wife and whose
daddy Deng is rumored to be.
America probably was lucky to be spared Li's story. But television also
spared us more than a superficial look at the dynamics and personalities of
Chinese politics beyond the idealism of the demonstrators and the brutality
of the aging men who still rule China. In so doing, they gave us but the
sound bites of one hand clapping.
================
Oberfeld is the managing editor of Insight.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!pyrdc!gmu90x!ccoleman Sun Jul 16 16:37:22 PDT 1989
Article 20358 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!pyrdc!gmu90x!ccoleman
>From: ccoleman@gmu90x.UUCP (Chuck Coleman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: How to Deal with Chinese Spies
Keywords: Contact your local counter-espionage service
Message-ID: <2111@gmu90x.UUCP>
Date: 7 Jul 89 16:28:50 GMT
References: <8116@bsu-cs.bsu.edu>
Reply-To: ccoleman@gmu90x.UUCP (Chuck Coleman)
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Va.
Lines: 20
In <8116@bsu-cs.bsu.edu>, Bo Xiong writes
>[Tale of harassment by Chinese diplomat in Vancouver, B.C., Canada]
In incidents of this sort, you do have recourse. In the U.S., contact the
FBI and give them all the necessary information. Its phone number may be
obtained from the telephone directory, or by calling directory assistance
(411). Diplomats and their student informants may be committing espionage,
criminal harassment, or other offenses, for which they may be expelled back to
the PRC. Remember, nothing can happen if you don't report anything.
Could other s.c.c. readers please post relevant information for other
countries? Counterespionage agencies exist in all countries (except for
Costa Rica and a few others).
Long live democracy!
Chuck Coleman
BITNET: ccoleman@GMUVAX
Internet: ccoleman@gmuvax2.gmu.edu
From polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!cica!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF Sun Jul 16 16:37:31 PDT 1989
Article 20359 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!cica!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF
>From: SHENF@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Zhiyong Shen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Insight on China
Message-ID: <2561@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 7 Jul 89 18:47:10 GMT
References: <Added.IYf6Lam00Ui38TZ049@andrew.cmu.edu>
Sender: news@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu
Organization: Ohio State University
Lines: 22
This Insight "editorial" is nothing but a piece of voodoo journalism. I
am no defender of Zhao Ziyang. It is just too much for this so-called
"journalist" not only to buy Deng's story but also to make up a more
sensational story of "conspiracy". Even Deng can only say that Zhao at
the critical moment made a mistake of voicing dissenting views ("splitting
the Party"). Zhao saw that it would be a crime against the Chinese nation and
the entire humanity to crush such a popular movement with tanks and
machine-guns. He refused to be one of the Butchers. Anyone with a little
human conscience left would have done the same. Even those warlord
predecessors of CCP did try hard not to become students butchers.
When the Presidential Palace of the Northern Warlords was burnt in 1919,
the Warlords did not find it pleasant to kill the students and they only
used water-cannon and sticks to disperse the demonstrators.
There is a more convincing explanation for the well-organized
movement. The pro-democracy movement have such a widespread support
from all walks of life that EVERY Chinese with a sense of justice
wants to support it. When the entire city of Beijing supported the
students, of course they were able to get everything they wanted. They
wished that they could win over the troops as well but they failed.
Zhiyong
From polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!wugate!wupost!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!zhang Sun Jul 16 16:37:44 PDT 1989
Article 20360 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!wugate!wupost!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!zhang
>From: ZHANG@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Compare Qian Xue Sen and Guo Muo Ruo
Message-ID: <4797@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>
Date: 7 Jul 89 18:02:02 GMT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services
Lines: 24
After patiently reading Prof. Qian Xue Sen's article on the People's
Daily (JUly 3rd or 2nd,89), which gave a very unfair evaluation to Prof.
Fang Li Zhi in science and a strong insult in politics.
I, as many other chinese, respect Prof. Qian's contribution in science
to China in ealier years. However, on the other hand I hate the way he treated
Prof. Fang, which has been very common during last thirty years among
chinese intellectuals. How could he, appeared as an open-minded person
several years ago, evaluate an well-known Fang in such a unfair way?
Only because he is holding different believe in politics and different
opinion in science, he could regard the other as nothing.
Certainly, unfair things always happen in China. According the recent
chinese party's evaluation to Mr. Zhao Zi Yang and the ten year open door
excellent results. It seems that Zhao did nothing, while during the last ten
years China has achieved a great vectory. What a contradiction! Chinese should
learn to be fair from generation to generation, otherwise we would be always
"ugly" whereever.
Should we let Qian Xue Sen know that he, as a well known person, should
be fair to other intellectuals, by writing or calling?
(Like the phrase he used in his article: "Xue2 Feng1 Bu4 Zheng4")
S. Zhang
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!pasteur!ernie.Berkeley.EDU!timlee Sun Jul 16 16:37:54 PDT 1989
Article 20361 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!pasteur!ernie.Berkeley.EDU!timlee
>From: timlee@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Timothy J. Lee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: boycott
Message-ID: <15257@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 7 Jul 89 18:57:24 GMT
References: <4322@tank.uchicago.edu>
Sender: news@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: timlee@ernie.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Timothy J. Lee)
Distribution: na
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 10
In article <4322@tank.uchicago.edu> news@tank.uchicago.edu (NetNews) writes:
>Having thought about boycotting Japanese product, I decided to get an American
>car. Can someone suggest a U.S. auto maker who doesn't do any business with
>China?
People wrote a lot about Chrysler's jeep factory in the PRC.
Of course, people are trying to boycott GM and Ford for other reasons
(environmental, for example).
About companies in Japan: which ones support the CCP?
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF Sun Jul 16 16:39:59 PDT 1989
Article 20369 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu!kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu!SHENF
>From: SHENF@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Zhiyong Shen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Insight on China
Message-ID: <2566@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 7 Jul 89 20:43:06 GMT
References: <Added.IYf6Lam00Ui38TZ049@andrew.cmu.edu>
Sender: news@quanta.eng.ohio-state.edu
Organization: Ohio State University
Lines: 34
>From: Mike Trick@welsh.ece.cmu.edu (forwarded by Zhiyong Shen)
Oberfeld's editorial on the Chinese democratic movement shows an appalling
lack of "insight". His supposedly new conclusions are:
1. The movement was not spontaneous, but rather was instigated by
Zhao Ziyang.
2. Political and familial alliances at the top levels of Chinese
government determine the direction of the government.
The first point is utter nonsense. The demonstrators WERE organized, and
Zhao Ziyang WAS more sympathetic than Deng and Li Peng, but this hardly
constitutes proof that Zhao orchestrated the demonstrations. The Chinese
populace has such profound disgust with corrupt officials and ruinous
economic policies that the kettle was bound to boil over. The death of
Hu Yaobang sparked the demonstrations. Zhao and Hu Qili (information
minister) supported the demonstrations only in that they did not move to
crack down and gave the demonstration some news coverage. They stuck their
necks out in the hope of improving the lot of the Chinese people, and for
their trouble, they were sacked.
As for the political alliances in the politburo, Oberfeld is not the first
to mention the Shanghai mayor, Jian Zemin, or the Yang brothers of the
military. Time magazine is hardly the deepest news magazine, but it
reported on the conflict between the 38th (from Beijing) and 27th (Yang's)
armies.
In the absence of any real analysis of the situation, Oberfeld resorts to
bashing TV journalists. (I wonder if he could rattle off the names of the
top twelve Chinese politicians if he had to do it on live television.) He
should compare himself to other magazines, not to TV. On television we
may have heard "sound bites of one hand clapping", but Oberfeld gives us
the sound of one jaw flapping.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!pur-ee!songj Sun Jul 16 16:42:25 PDT 1989
Article 20373 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!pur-ee!songj
>From: songj@pur-ee.UUCP (Jisheng Song)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Insight on China
Message-ID: <12143@pur-ee.UUCP>
Date: 7 Jul 89 20:46:15 GMT
References: <Added.IYf6Lam00Ui38TZ049@andrew.cmu.edu>
Reply-To: songj@pur-ee.UUCP (Jisheng Song)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Lines: 46
I have never heard of this Insight Magazine. After reading its editorial
posted here. I feel that its criticizing other American media reports
superficial about the pro-democracy movement in China does not give itself
credit of providing insight information.
The author of this article tried to brag his/her keen observation about
the movement by reporting some helps students got which were not reported
by other media organizations. It is fine if the editor can sense some unusual
scence in the square. But it does not grant the editor to reach
conclusion just from that observation. From the article we can see clearly
that editor did not have any information about who lent the aid to the
students. And it also made a guess based on its own judgement: Zhao must be
for this movement. So the aid must be from Zhao's people.
With the same viewpoint of the movement's being used for the power struggle,
another analysis claimed that hard liners actually plotted to incite the
demonstration so that they would have excuse to purge liberals, crack down
on intellectuals and get back the control of the government and the country.
I agree with this analysis.
Before the demonstatrion, every body talked about how open China was
becoming: People criticized Deng Xiaoping on street; intellectuals in
ideology criticized Marxism-Leninism and praised and promoted capitalism;
etc. Hard liners felt that the their well-establishment was slipping away in
the blow of freedom and democracy. But before the demonstration, there was
not excuse for them to impose any tough measure to stop this trend. So a
turmoil would be used to help them to gain their power back.
The editor certainly missed the speach given by a high rank official,
Yan Mingfu, who was just purged from the politburo. In the speech to the
students in the square, He asked students to end hunger strike and go back
to campus. He pleaded students to "GIVE REFORMERS MORE TIME." This definitely
indicate that reformers in the government did not want the demonstration to
continue and intensify. The reason for this is very simple: The perspective
of reform will threaten the future of CCP aging guards and their offsprings.
But reformers had not established the foundation in the government to pursue
their idea and they knew that demonstration would lend hard liners excuse to
destroy the reform. And so it happened.
Be aware that I am not criticizing that students made a mistake. On the
contrary, I do appreciate students using their life to force the Chinese
government to reveal its true, ugly face to people in China and the world so
that it can never deceive any body any more. I never felt that reformers
in the CCP were willing to establish a real democracy in China.
___
From polya!shelby!rutgers!psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!t20 Sun Jul 16 16:44:18 PDT 1989
Article 20380 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!t20
>From: T20@PSUVM.BITNET (Stephen G. Simpson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,psu.china
Subject: crackdown on prominent intellectuals
Message-ID: <89188.104059T20@PSUVM>
Date: 7 Jul 89 14:40:59 GMT
Organization: Penn State University - Center for Academic Computing
Lines: 17
Xref: polya soc.culture.china:20380
In today's news it says that the mayor of Beijing, Chen Xitong, read
a report on June 30 to the Standing Committee of tne National People's
Congress. After being approved by the congress, the report was
made public on July 6. The report condemns prominent intellectuals
who spoke out on political and economic issues in recent months. This
is said to indicate an intensification of the crackdown on dissent,
which is now five weeks old. In addition, the report steps up
criticism of the former CP leader, Zhao Ziyang, and accuses his aides
and advisers of collaborating with the students.
My question is: Does anybody have more details about this report?
Specifically, does anybody know the names of the intellectuals
who are condemned? If you have this information, please publicize
it, since publicity can no longer hurt these people. Also, their
friends and colleagues may find this information useful.
Bravo for the Chinese democracy movement!
From polya!shelby!rutgers!gatech!psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!i24 Sun Jul 16 16:44:36 PDT 1989
Article 20381 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!gatech!psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!i24
>From: I24@PSUVM.BITNET (Eddie Cheng)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,psu.china
Subject: Re: crackdown on prominent intellectuals
Message-ID: <89188.114530I24@PSUVM>
Date: 7 Jul 89 15:45:30 GMT
References: <89188.104059T20@PSUVM>
Organization: Penn State University - Center for Academic Computing
Lines: 35
Xref: polya soc.culture.china:20381
In article <89188.104059T20@PSUVM>, Stephen G. Simpson <T20@PSUVM.BITNET> says:
>
>My question is: Does anybody have more details about this report?
>Specifically, does anybody know the names of the intellectuals
>who are condemned? If you have this information, please publicize
>it, since publicity can no longer hurt these people. Also, their
>friends and colleagues may find this information useful.
>
I guess we have to wait for a couple of days to get this report. Three
names have been mentioned in today's newspaper. They are:
Fang, LiZhi, a physicist; now seeking refugee in American Embassy in Beijing;
Yan, JiaQi, a theorist in political science; now fled to Paris and coming to
USA (?);
Su, ShaoZhi, a theorist in philosophy and Marxism; now in USA
Others possibly include:
Liu XiaoBo, a young theorist in literature; arrested and publicly condemed
Hu, JiWei, an activist in press freedom and a "senator"; no info. now.
Yu, HaoChen, an expert of Law science; Wanted; no info.
Bao, ZunXing, Editor in chief of a famous book series; Wanted; no info.
Su, XiaoKang, a playwriter; Wanted; no info.
Wang, RuoWang, an author; Wanted; no info.
Wang, JunTao, a young theorist in economy; Wanted; no info.
These are the names I just pulled out of my mind. It is far from complete.
Information exchange is very important here. I'll try to upgrate it if possibl
e.
>Bravo for the Chinese democracy movement!
>
>
From polya!shelby!rutgers!sunybcs!ningluo Sun Jul 16 16:45:03 PDT 1989
Article 20382 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!sunybcs!ningluo
>From: ningluo@sunybcs.uucp (Ning Luo)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Ted Koppel's TAM Report
Message-ID: <7654@cs.Buffalo.EDU>
Date: 7 Jul 89 22:32:29 GMT
References: <12433@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <UYgtYpy00XoY04clF7@andrew.cmu.edu> <2169@husc6.harvard.edu> <2170@husc6.harvard.edu>
Sender: nobody@cs.Buffalo.EDU
Reply-To: ningluo@sunybcs.UUCP (Ning Luo)
Organization: SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science
Lines: 31
In article <2170@husc6.harvard.edu> chen@endor.UUCP (Lily Chen) writes:
>Sorry for the mistake. The students followed majority rule
>on every issue except on whether to stay or leave the square.
>They decided that if one person would stay, everyone would
>stay. This showed their determination and solidarity. And
>this decision was made by the majority rule too.
So the rule(A) on the issue of "stay or leave" IS the minority rule,
although this rule is established by a vote under another
majority rule(B).
Does any one know if the students had any rule(C) on how the rules(A,B,C,...)
would be changed? Had any one tried to change the rules?
This is an interesting question which has important implications
to the present and to the future. As I have noticed that
some student associations here have constitutions which do not
include the rule for the change of the constitutions themselves.
In a hypothetical case, suppose a majority voted, under a majority-rule
system, that the majority-rule itself should be terminated.
What would happen next?
Should a democratic system allow the possibility, no matter how
inconceivable it is, to terminate itself and yield to some
other system (e.g. absolutistic)?
Luo, Ning
Dept. of Physics
SUNY Buffalo
Amherst, NY 14260 | ningluo@marvin.cs.buffalo.edu (APARNET)
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU!yj1 Sun Jul 16 16:46:30 PDT 1989
Article 20391 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU!yj1
>From: yj1@CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (y)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: BNC: Wang Dan was arrested
Message-ID: <CMM.0.88.615857463.yj1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: 7 Jul 89 23:31:03 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 8
NBC Nightly News with Tom Brokaw said the Chinese authority announced
today that the prominent student leader Wang Dan is arrested.
Can we do something effective to stop CCP's brutality? Another
petition letter may not work. There have been to many. How about a
petition letter signed by all the Beida alumnus in the world? Or how
about gather a bunch of students in the US graduated from Beida request
for collective asylum? I like to heard about your opinion.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!bnr-public!schow Sun Jul 16 16:49:21 PDT 1989
Article 20400 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!bnr-public!schow
>From: schow@bnr-public.uucp (Stanley Chow)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: The beginnings of Min Zhu
Message-ID: <722@bnr-fos.UUCP>
Date: 7 Jul 89 22:31:03 GMT
References: <8907062321.AA17190@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
Sender: news@bnr-fos.UUCP
Reply-To: schow%BNR.CA.bitnet@relay.cs.net (Stanley Chow)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Lines: 48
Summary:
Followup-To:
Keywords:
In article <8907062321.AA17190@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> R746LS2R@VB.CC.CMU.EDU (Xue Lei) writes:
>
>I think that the following is something that almost every person believes in --
>one way or another:
> [Excerpt from the Declaration of Independence]
It is very interesting that, over the years, many groups have conducted polls
of people's opinion on this and other historical documents. Sometimes the text
is just presented to the people and *not* indentified. In those cases, the
response of "The People" is usually "What kind of commie propaganda is this?"
Very few people express support for these documents and fewer still actually
recognize them as historical.
It is even more interesting that very small groups of people decided what went
into each document, even the Constitution was drafted in a closed meeting. Many
pundits state that in present day USA, especially in an open meeting, the USA
constitution and bill of rights would not pass.
>
>So then we can safely say that the Chinese government (ie. CCP), does violate
>(for a lack of a better term) the above *human* rights. That is:
>1) They deny to the Chinese people the rights of any and all human beings.
> Among those rights that are taken for granted here are:
↑↑↑↑
> a) freedom of press,
> b) freedom of speech,
> c) freedom to peaceably assemble and petition the government for a redress
> of grievances.
Please note that these rights are a recent phonomenon. And there are limits
placed on them in every country, even the USA.
I will also say that the TAM incident *proofs* that *some* degrees of these
freedom were present in China.
Before everyone flames, I will merely ask you, Before martial law was imposed,
what would you say the students were doing in TAM? I would say they were
"peacably assembled and petitioned" the government. You say the government should
not have imposed martial law, that is a matter of judgement. In this case, I
in fact agree with Li Peng that *any* government would impose martial law under
the circumstances. [I do not approve of the use of machine guns against any
demonstrators]
Stanley Chow BitNet: schow@BNR.CA
BNR UUCP: ..!psuvax1!BNR.CA.bitnet!schow
(613) 763-2831 ..!utgpu!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!schow%bnr-public
Me? Represent other people? Don't make them laugh so hard.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!usc!orion.cf.uci.edu!uci-ics!zardoz!tgate!ka3ovk!teemc!mibte!gamma!thumper!faline!vicmak Sun Jul 16 16:50:54 PDT 1989
Article 20408 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!usc!orion.cf.uci.edu!uci-ics!zardoz!tgate!ka3ovk!teemc!mibte!gamma!thumper!faline!vicmak
>From: vicmak@faline.bellcore.com (Victor Mak)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: How to subscribe china-net?
Keywords: china-net
Message-ID: <2280@faline.bellcore.com>
Date: 29 Jun 89 17:13:40 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Bell Communications Research
Lines: 7
Could someone please tell me how can I subscribe china-net?
Thanks!
Victor Mak
Bell Communications Research, New Jersey
vicmak@bellcore.com
From polya!shelby!agate!apple!sun-barr!ames!ucsd!hub!engmat.UCSB.Edu!heng Sun Jul 16 16:51:17 PDT 1989
Article 20409 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!apple!sun-barr!ames!ucsd!hub!engmat.UCSB.Edu!heng
>From: heng@engmat.UCSB.Edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: mourn
Message-ID: <2042@hub.UUCP>
Date: 6 Jul 89 21:52:09 GMT
Expires: July 31, 1989
Sender: news@hub.UUCP
Followup-To: xiuqiu@sbitp.bitnet
Organization: University of California, Santa Barbara
Lines: 23
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Hao Zhijing, 30, a native of Anhui, was among one of the dead in |
| Beijing massacre. Being missing since June 3rd, his body was finally |
| found as family members taking a third try at Fuxin hospital. |
| |
| Zhijing, a graduate of Department of Modern Physics, Class of 78, |
| University of Science and Technology of China, was a researcher at |
| the Institute of Science and Technology policy, Academic Sinica. |
| He was an individule with a lot of wonderful characters: active, |
| social, upbeat, energetic. His voice and smile have left us fond |
| memories. Now these memories are shattered by the bullets of Fascists. |
| |
| He was the only child of his parents. And he is survived by his |
| wife Zhen Ying. |
| |
| He died, for a dream, for an ideal, for a hope. We are proud to |
| have been his classmates and friends. With tearful and bleeding |
| hearts, we pledge to carry his hope alive. |
| |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!USCN.BITNET!Gr3869 Sun Jul 16 16:51:50 PDT 1989
Article 20412 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!USCN.BITNET!Gr3869
>From: Gr3869@USCN.BITNET
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Canadian government has passed a bill similar to Gordon's bill
Message-ID: <890708001608487.ACYL@205FE.USCN.UGA.EDU>
Date: 8 Jul 89 05:24:39 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 4
All Chinese students in Canada now can apply for PR.
All Chinese students here in US now should turn around and support Gordon's
bill. We need 2/3 of House vote to overwrite a possible presidental veto.
Work hard now and do not be a sorry-ass later.
From polya!shelby!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!jane Sun Jul 16 16:52:14 PDT 1989
Article 20414 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!jane
>From: jane@garnet.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Asylum
Message-ID: <26121@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>
Date: 8 Jul 89 04:57:06 GMT
Sender: usenet@agate.BERKELEY.EDU
Reply-To: jane@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 4
It is probably right time to prepare for asylum, anybody, who is
interesting in asylum, might send me your phonon number and the maximum
lawyer fee you will offer.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!oliveb!pyramid!leadsv!practic!vlsisj!kat Sun Jul 16 16:53:01 PDT 1989
Article 20416 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!oliveb!pyramid!leadsv!practic!vlsisj!kat
>From: kat@vlsisj.VLSI.COM (Katherine Hsu)
Newsgroups: ba.general,soc.culture.china
Subject: Please support defected newspapers.
Message-ID: <15258@vlsisj.VLSI.COM>
Date: 6 Jul 89 16:35:00 GMT
Reply-To: kat@vlsisj.UUCP ()
Distribution: usa
Organization: VLSI Technology Inc., San Jose, CA
Lines: 29
Xref: polya ba.general:6999 soc.culture.china:20416
TThe following article is contributed by Professor Wu Hung-Hsi from
math dept of UC Berkeley.
During the student demonstrations in May and June, the Hong Kong and
American left-wing Chinese newspapers all chose to report the facts
straight, and often backing them up with editorials synpathizing with
the students. Some even went so far as to condemn Deng, Li et. al.
outright. Beijing was furious, and after the hardliners regained
control,
they began to address this unseemly rebellion by applying economic
pressure (all of these papers were heavily subsidized by Beijing).
Bowing
to reality, all of them have recently reverted to reporting only CCP
propaganda, just as in the good old days. However, two of them refused
to buckle under: Wen Hui Bao of Hong Kong and Hua Qiao Ri Bao (China
Daily News) of New York both decided to consolidate their newly-acquired
indepandence and sever their ties with Beijing rather than have their
voice muffled again. In so doing, they risk financial instability and
perhaps even bankrupcy, but they have the total support of their
respective work force.
These papers deserve our support. Their independence has made their
papers
extremely readable as a result. Please tell your friends about these
papers.
Subscribe to them. Better yet, begin a subscription drive for these
papers.
(Wen Hui Bao has an overseas edition in the U.S.)
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wasatch!helios.ee.lbl.gov!ux3.lbl.gov!lwong Sun Jul 16 16:54:11 PDT 1989
Article 20422 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wasatch!helios.ee.lbl.gov!ux3.lbl.gov!lwong
>From: lwong@ux3.lbl.gov (Lam Wong)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Beijing Mayor's Turmoil Report
Message-ID: <2965@helios.ee.lbl.gov>
Date: 8 Jul 89 08:23:07 GMT
Sender: usenet@helios.ee.lbl.gov
Reply-To: lhwong@lbl.gov (Lam Wong)
Lines: 163
References:
Distribution:
>From: T20@PSUVM.BITNET (Stephen G. Simpson)
>In today's news it says that the mayor of Beijing, Chen Xitong, read
>a report on June 30 to the Standing Committee of tne National People's
>Congress.
>My question is: Does anybody have more details about this report?
>Specifically, does anybody know the names of the intellectuals
>who are condemned? If you have this information, please publicize
>it, since publicity can no longer hurt these people. Also, their
>friends and colleagues may find this information useful.
I read the first 5 (of 8) sections of this very interesting report.
What can one say? In a feudal society like China, only the rulers
can document history. The rulers have the freedom to put in lies,
distortions, partial truths, and some facts into their version
of history; the ruled only have the freedom to study and believe the
rulers' version. Nevertheless, it's interesting (at times amusing)
to read how they explained what happened in China in the past
few months. So far I haven't seen any English translation of it.
You probably will find the Enghlish translation in the future issue of
"The Beijing Review". I will quote and comment on some "highlights".
In Section I, the report said that this turmoil has been planned for
a long time. It described the "activities" of the turmoil instigators
during the period between September-88 (3rd plenum of the Central
Committee of the 13th Party Congress) and April-89 (the death of Hu
Yao-Bang). In the 3rd Plenum, Li Peng's policy of economic
restructuring was endorsed after the failure of price reform.
The report said,
It's especially noteworthy that after Comrade Zhao Zi-Yang
had met with an American liberal economist (Milton Friedman)
in September of 88, some HK newspapers which claimed to have
connections with memebers of "Zhou's Think Tank" started their
propaganda campaign and disclosed the information that "Beijing
is using HK media to attack Deng and protect Zhao".....
It went on to quote isolated sentences appeared in HK newspapers
and magazines. The interesting thing is that all the sentences quoted
serve the purpose of pitting Zhao against Deng (not Zhao vs. Li Peng).
It went on to say,
At the same time, Beijing's "Economics Weekly" published a
dialogue on the current political situation between Yan Jia-qi
and another person. This dialogue attacked the policy of
economic restructuring, saying that it would lead China
into a period of "stagnation". It claimed that China today faces
a serious problem of how to prevent the abnormal process of power
transfer which led to the downfall of Kruschev and Liu Shao-qi.
The purpose of the dialogue is to cover up Zhao's mistakes and
try to keep him in power so that they can continue to carry forward
their bougeois liberalism propaganda.
All of these counter-revolutionary activities listed in the report were
carried out in the open --- writing newspaper articles, signing open
letters, holding seminars, having open dialogues, sponsoring political
salons, ...., etc,.... Not a single one was done in secracy.
The people named in this Section are:
1. Yan Jia-qi
2. Bao Tung (Zhao's Secretary)
3. Jing Guan-tao (young historian)
4. Ge Yang (editory of "New Observer" magazine which is banned now)
5. Su Shao-zhi
6. Fang Li-zhi
7. Zhang Xian-yang (a researcher in the Academy of Social Sciences; Su's
colleague)
8. Li Hong-lin ( a researcher in Fujian's Academy of Social Sciences)
9. Bao Jun-xin (a historian)
Section II's theme is that the student demonstrations were used by
the organizers of turmoil from the very beginning. This section covered
the period between Hu's death and his funeral. The intellectuals
were relatively quiet during this period. The only "evidence"
of the "bland hands" at work was a seminor sponsored by "New
Observer" magazine". The particpants demanded the rehabailitation
of Hu. The participants include Yan (1), Su (5), and two
new names:
10. Chen Zi-min (director Beijing's Social-Economics Institute)
11. Liu Lui-Shao (HK Wen Hui Pao's Beijing correspondent)
In this section, Chen disclosed that Zhao blamed Jiang Ze-min
of "messing up things" when Jiang fired Qin Ben-li, editor of
the "World Economic Journal" from his post.
Section III's theme is that the 4.26 editorial is absolutely
correct in its evaluation of the characteristics of the turmoil.
The most ludicrous thing it said was, "4.26 editorial was correct;
it served the purpose of stabilizing the situation". It didn't
bother to explain why there was a huge demonstration on April 27th.
Section IV's theme is that Zhao's 5.4 speech was the turning point
of the turmoil. Zhao's speech was said to have completely contradicted
the 4.26 editorial, boosted the morale of the turmoil instigators,
and confused the cadres who tried to prevent the turmoil. Some
cadres complained after the speech that they didn't know whose
order they should follow. A few interesting/funny quotes by those
cadres:
- "There are two voices in the Party Central. Who is right? Who is wrong?
Whom should we follow?"
- "You want us to keep in line with the Party Central. Which Central
should we keep in line with?"
- "Zi-yang tries to be the good guy on top; we end up to be the bad
guys below."
The report said,
Cadres at the universities felt that they were "betrayed". Some
shed tears. At that time, it was very difficult for the Beijing
Party Committee to carry on its work. We knew that the Party
Central was not united. Yet we had to tell people below that
it was united and that only the emphasis was different.
It's crytal clear from this section that Yan Jia-qi, Cao Si-yuan,
Zhang Xian-yang, and other intellectuals are considered to be
the instigators and organizers of the turmoil. Chen's report
also accused Zhao of encouraging the Beijing Autonomous Union
to continue boycott of classes. This is very hard to believe.
Why would Zhao encourage the students to boycott classes AFTER
his 5.4 speech?
One more new name in this section:
12. Cao Si-yuan (employee of Stone Corporation)
Section V is on hunger strikes. The theme is that no matter how
far the Government concedes, the students wouldn't be satisfied.
It also claimed credit for helping to organize medical support
for the hunger strikers, providing blankets, constructing temporary
toilets, etc....
The report accused Zhao of "inciting the official media to misguide the
masses". "Because the media reported the event positively and
misguided the people, the number of supporters grew daily and
increased to hundreds of thousands". The following "bourgeois
liberalists" were accused to have fueled the flame. On the night of
May 13th, Yan (1), Su (5), Bao (9) and others put up a big-character
poster in BeiDa, titled "We cannot be silent any longer".
On May 14th, Yan (1), Bao (9), Li (10), Dai Qing, Yu Hao-cheng,
Li Ze-hou, Su Xiao-kang, Wen Yuan-kai, Liu Zai-fu, and others
signed an open letter demanding the CCP to negate 4.26 editorial.
This letter was published in the "Guang Ming Daily" and was broadcasted
on CCTV.
The new names in this section are:
13. Dai Qing (a reporter at "Guang Ming Daily"; Marshal Ye Jien-ying's
step daughter.)
14. Yu Hao-cheng (a legal expert)
15. Li Ze-hou (philosopher)
16. Su Xiao-kang (writer)
17. Wen Yuan-kai (professor)
18. Liu Zai-fu (literary critic)
To be continued..........
Lam Wong
(reply to: lhwong@lbl.gov)
From polya!shelby!unix!husc6!rice!uw-beaver!blake!xman Sun Jul 16 16:54:24 PDT 1989
Article 20423 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!unix!husc6!rice!uw-beaver!blake!xman
>From: xman@blake.acs.washington.edu (Xu Chen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Compensating TAM victims' families
Keywords: Is anyone doing anything?
Message-ID: <2693@blake.acs.washington.edu>
Date: 8 Jul 89 05:41:02 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Univ of Washington, Seattle
Lines: 7
On July 3rd, People's daily had a short report saying there were 36 students
killed in the crackdown. We all believe the actual number is much larger.
But at least these victims are confirmed. I know there are many organizations
have been raising fund to compensate the victims' families. Has anyone had any
success in sending money to the victim's families?
From polya!shelby!agate!apple!sun-barr!newstop!sun!aeras!topo!wongi Sun Jul 16 16:55:11 PDT 1989
Article 20425 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!apple!sun-barr!newstop!sun!aeras!topo!wongi
>From: wongi@topo.UUCP (Isaac Wong)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: The views of a Deng supporter
Message-ID: <15207@topo.UUCP>
Date: 8 Jul 89 07:09:30 GMT
References: <1937@cbnewsh.ATT.COM> <40790@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>
Reply-To: wongi@topo.UUCP (Isaac Wong)
Organization: GenRad Inc., Milpitas CA
Lines: 35
In article <40790@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> linli@cmcl2.UUCP (xiaolin li) writes:
>In article <1937@cbnewsh.ATT.COM> ka@hulk.att.com writes:
>>[From an article by Fox Butterfield, copyright 1989 by the New
>>York Times:]
>>
>
>I have read the article. From this article, I sensed a dangerous
>perception not only by the general but the writer as well. It also makes
>me upset that NYT publishes this article. Does it mean some people
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
>in the American administrative level want to deminish the meaning
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
>of the pro-democracy people who died in Deng's 6/4 massacre?
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
It doesn't have to be taken that way. Everyone has the FUNDAMENTAL
HUMAN RIGHT to free speech and belief, no matter how unpopular his/her
opinion might be. The press also has the responsibility to present
all viewpoints, and again, even though some may be unpopular!
Free press( one of the things that many Chinese people died for a few
weeks ago) doesn't mean reporting and presenting only what is popuplar and
believed to be right by the majority.
It is very important for all of us to recognize that freedom of speech
goes beyond our right to speak out what we believe to be right. It covers
also others right to express what they believe to be right, even though
we may strongly disagree.
-Ike
--
--------------- W E S H A L L R E M E M B E R ----------------
------------ J U N E F O U R T H, 1 9 8 9 --------------
From polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!cica!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!att!cbnewsd!jentto Sun Jul 16 16:56:20 PDT 1989
Article 20429 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!cica!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!att!cbnewsd!jentto
>From: jentto@cbnewsd.ATT.COM (jen-lie.n.ho)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Beijing People Fear Phone Tapping ---- revealed in Beijing Youth News
Message-ID: <412@cbnewsd.ATT.COM>
Date: 8 Jul 89 13:42:39 GMT
References: <14946@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <2192@ucsfcca.ucsf.edu>
Reply-To: jentto@cbnewsd.ATT.COM (jen-lie.n.ho,ihp,)
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 20
In article <2192@ucsfcca.ucsf.edu> peterli@mis.ucsf.edu (Peter Li) writes:
>If they are computer programmed or digitally routed, then it should be very
>easy to tap or scan. I have no first hand knowledge of telephone exchange
>systems, but from the basic principles of computers, one should be able to
>change the programming so that switches can "duplicate" phone connections
>for diversions. The more computerized a system is, the more ways to do what
>you want (Hacker's Principle ? :-).
>
>Peter Li
The switches in mainland are mostly electromechanical rather than
modern digital electronics. Above all, alter the switch program is
not that simple. There are however many ways to do it externally.
The problem is which ones to tap as one netter pointed out earlier.
Who knows? CCP has already gone beserk. It surprises me not if they
put the whole 27th army to listen all lines all the time!
==== AT&T has nothing to do with my personal opinion expressed here ====
JenLie Ho
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!pnet02.cts.COM!ldp Sun Jul 16 16:58:28 PDT 1989
Article 20438 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!pnet02.cts.COM!ldp
>From: ldp@pnet02.cts.COM (Lewis Dupran)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: inclusion in mailing list
Message-ID: <8907081948.AA06253@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>
Date: 8 Jul 89 18:58:01 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 18
I have been distributing the soc.culture.china newsgroup information
to Chinese students at USC who are very interested in keeping abreast
of the situation in China. However, since Gryphon does not carry that
newsgroup, I've been doing it the hard way (friend of a friend of...)
and the news is a month old by the time I get it.
Please include me in your mailing list, so I can get the news while
it is fresh. As I am volunteering to distribute the news to students
who do not have usenet access, I would appreciate it if you could
perpetuate this message to other newsgroup moderators whom you find
appropriate (I'm mostly looking for news on the Chinese gov't and the
Chinese students, not really on cultural discussions).
In advance, I thank you and several dozen Chinese students at USC
thank you for keeping them informed.
UUCP: {ames!elroy, <backbone>}!gryphon!pnet02!ldp
INET: ldp@pnet02.cts.com
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!KENTVM.BITNET!GXU Sun Jul 16 17:00:35 PDT 1989
Article 20446 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!KENTVM.BITNET!GXU
>From: GXU@KENTVM.BITNET ("Xu, Gang")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: I am posting this for Mr. Wan
Message-ID: <8907090037.AA03578@jade.berkeley.edu>
Date: 9 Jul 89 00:33:27 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 66
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1989 20:10:20 EDT
>From: Kelin Wan <FLAN@SBCCVM>
Subject: letter to President Bush
Dear sir, since we don't know how to post an article at SCC, we appreciate
it if you can post the following message at SCC.
=========================================================================
Everybody concerns whether the Bills protecting Chinese students and scholars
can be passed and how president Bush will react. Yesterday, representatives fro
m universities at New York made a discussion about it and decided to write a le
tter to president Bush requesting his protection. Why we will do it ? Because B
ush said a month ago that Chinese students didn't request his protection.
If your school wants to be co-signer of the letter, please contact us either by
phone or E-mail as soon as possible (1st deadline: 16th July) and give us the
following message:
full name of your university;
name and phone number of the coordinator.
to:
Kelin Wan (516)751-2986 (H); (516)632-8077 (O) <flan@sbccvm.bitnet>
Jun Wu (516)632-2269 (H); (516)632-8489 (O) <everton1@sbccvm.bitnet>
**********************************************************************
Dear President Bush:
The whole world has witnessed the brutal crackdown and massive killing brought
about by the Chinese government against its own unarmed and peaceful demonstrat
ors and citizens. As our worst fear continues to unfold in front of our eyes, t
he Chinese government not only shamelessly lies and distorts the truth of the J
une 4th massacre, but further attacks its innocent poeple with scare tactics, m
ass arrests, and executions. Arrests and certain death await those who dare to
speak, think, and even know the truth.
In China, for the past forty years, every political upheaval has involed the lo
ng-term imprisonment, torture, internal exile, and execution of intellectuals.
The intellectuals have been targeted because of their potential abilities to th
ink and speak, which most threaten the Chinese government's contrl by oppressio
n and lies.
We, the Chinese students and scholars in the U.S.A., are in particular danger o
f being persecuted. We have witnessed what has happened in the last two months
and can no longer be fooled by the lies of the Chinese government. We have been
exposed to and "corrupted" by the democratic way of life in this country. Furt
hermore, we have all been deeply involved in the pro-democracy movement both be
fore and after the massacre, and most of us have been videotaped and perhaps re
ported by the Chinese government agents within the U.S.A..
Although we love our country and we will continue to pursue the welfare and dem
ocracy for China, we are very worried for our own safety. Under current regulat
ion, many of us will have to returen to China and face persecution sooner or la
ter. There is yet no legal system in China that protects the very basic human r
ights.
We therefore request your help and support in allowing ue the option to remain
in the U.S. until we can be sure of our safety upon returning to China.
We are grateful to the brave American reporters who risked their lives to revea
l the whole truth to the world. We are also thankful for the enormous support f
rom the American people and government for the Chinese pro-democracy movement.
Your support and help are much needed and will be remembered by the Chinese peo
ple.
We believe a democratic China is ultimately essential for the future of a bette
r world.
Sincerely,
Chinese students and scholars at the following universities:
State University of New York at Stony Brook, Columbia University, City College
of New York, City University of New York, New York University, Cornell Universi
ty, State University of New York, Health Sciences Center.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!USCN.BITNET!Gr3869 Sun Jul 16 17:00:57 PDT 1989
Article 20447 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!USCN.BITNET!Gr3869
>From: Gr3869@USCN.BITNET
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Pelosi's bill is good
Message-ID: <890708221802F09.AETM@205FE.USCN.UGA.EDU>
Date: 9 Jul 89 03:46:41 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 19
Pelosi's bill is not good. Because it makes harder for F-1's to find a job,
it jams the road from F-1 to H-1 to PR, it also misinform people that this
bill will protect them. Pelosi's bill requires you to apply for a DD, for t
those 35,000 Chinese here on business or pleasure, to apply for DD means
defection. What's the differece than applying for political asylum?
For those J-1's who are supporting Pelosi's bill, you better be prepared
for more struggle ahead, because you have to explain to Chinese authorities why
you applied a DD. Pelosi's bill gives what protection, I want to know. Except
you apply for a DD, a waiver of J-1's two year home residency DOES NOT mean
you can stay here, and DOES NOT mean you can get a job after you are graduated.
J-1's do not support Pelosi's bill, if you do not want to apply DD.
When you mention J-1ers are "intelectuals" comparing with F-1's and others, it
makes me laugh. Many J-1ers(not inculde those who has to come here under a name
Zi4 Fei4 Gong1 Pai4; not include those who took exams, such as CUSPEA, and may
not even include you) here were "good boys" of their party bosses. It takes
courage to be unpopular among friends to please party boss. Intelecturals!
From polya!shelby!bloom-beacon!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!EULER.BERKELEY.EDU!lysmer Sun Jul 16 17:02:49 PDT 1989
Article 20455 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!bloom-beacon!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!EULER.BERKELEY.EDU!lysmer
>From: lysmer@EULER.BERKELEY.EDU (John Lysmer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Pelosi Bill is Good
Message-ID: <8907090725.AA15545@euler.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 9 Jul 89 07:25:07 GMT
Sender: usenet@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 47
Disclaimer: This is a forwarded message from my friend. I am not responsible
to the opinion expressed here although I may agree/disagree his
opinion.
================= Forwarded Message Starts ================================
Please help me to post the following message on SCC. Thanx.
K.K.
===========================================================================
In article 22693 of soc.culture.china<890708221802F09.AETM@205FE.USCN.UGA.EDU>
Gr3289 says:
>Pelosi's bill is not good. Because it makes harder for F-1's to find a job,
>it jams the road from F-1 to H-1 to PR, it also misinform people that this
>bill will protect them. Pelosi's bill requires you to apply for a DD, for t
>those 35,000 Chinese here on business or pleasure, to apply for DD means
>defection. What's the differece than applying for political asylum?
I really doubt your intention. Why do you want to make hatred between F-1s
and J-1s and fan on people's distrust. What you hinted here is just:" F-1s,
for your own benefit, against the Pelosi Bill. Otherwise the J-1s will take
job market away from you because they are better than you". I personally believe this is an insult to both F-1s and J-1s. In addition, where in Pelosi's Bill states that one must apply DD to extend his stay here?
>For those J-1's who are supporting Pelosi's bill, you better be prepared
>for more struggle ahead, because you have to explain to Chinese authorities why
>you applied a DD. Pelosi's bill gives what protection, I want to know. Except
>you apply for a DD, a waiver of J-1's two year home residency DOES NOT mean
>you can stay here, and DOES NOT mean you can get a job after you are graduated.
>
>J-1's do not support Pelosi's bill, if you do not want to apply DD.
>From what I understand, Pelosi's Bill is just open a door to all J-1s,it does
not garantee the protection. In essence, it turns J-1s equal to F-1s. In this
sense, you are right. But this is American way: I give you the oppotunity, if
you can not take it, that's you to blame. Even for American citizens there is
no garanteed job offer. And this bill requires no modification of the current
immigration law, that makes congress easier to accept. Remember one proverb
says: "God helps those who help themselves". If we can not prove ourselves
being able people, how could we "beg" other people for their mercy and
protection? No country will be willing to accept people who can do nothing
but making noises and accusing others (Hope this is not you).
If you do not wish to support the Pelosi Bill, that's your freedom. But
don't confuse people and let peoples fight among themselves (Tiao3 Dong4 Qun2
Zhong4 Dou4 Qun2 Zhong4). This is an old CCP trick and used so many times in
Culture Revolution and even now.
=================== Forwarded Message Ends ==================================
From polya!shelby!rutgers!ucsd!ucbvax!NDCVA.CC.ND.EDU!xiang Sun Jul 16 17:05:01 PDT 1989
Article 20473 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!ucsd!ucbvax!NDCVA.CC.ND.EDU!xiang
>From: xiang@NDCVA.CC.ND.EDU (Xiadou Xiang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: POLITICAL
Message-ID: <8907090056.AA00174@ndcva.cc.nd.edu>
Date: 9 Jul 89 00:56:49 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 38
NON-COOPERATION WITH C.C.P. --THE NEXT MOVE IN DEMOCRACY MOVEMENT
I have an idea for the next move in democracy movement: a campaign to boycott
"Biao3Tai4 (express attitude)" and "political study". If the Chinese do not
have the right to speak, they should at least have the right not to speak and
not to listen.
After Amritsar Massacre, Gandhi stopped organizing street demonstration and
adopted a new strategy: non-cooperation with British colonists. Now that
the street demonstration is virtually banned in China, we have to quit active
protest and stage a passive resistence such as a campaign of non-cooperation
with CCP.
For the democracy movement to succeed, there has to be a strategy that appeals
to the greater mass and wins their participation. Admittedly, most people are
not brave enough to take to the streets, especially after this bloody crackdown.
Boycotting "Biao3Tai4" and "political study" involves much less risk, therefore
has a greater chance to become a grass-root movement. Imagine that no one
shows up for political study in every work unit. This could cripple the
Party's function! What's more, three accomplishments could follow:
1. Cultivate antagonism against CCP. The seemingly insignificant boycott is
symbolically significant: it can transfix the antagonism of the mass into their
instinct, their spontaneous action.
2. It is a confidence-building exercise. When you cannot win big now, win
small first to gain confidence. The boycott, if succeeded, can show the Chinese
people that they do not have to give in on everything to the Beijing regime.
3. A "form" (Xing2Si4) of mass movement may emerge out of this exercise, which
may in turn serve more direct actions in future.
So, let's give this boycott a chance to work. Let us suggest it to our
countrymen inside China in our next round of letter campaign. Tell them that
they should not assume that losing the right to speak automatically means losing
the right not to speak and not to listen; that they still have that right and
they have to guard hard every right they have lest they lose all of them.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!lai Sun Jul 16 17:06:15 PDT 1989
Article 20482 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!lai
>From: lai@Apple.COM (Ed Lai)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Fwd:
Message-ID: <32991@apple.Apple.COM>
Date: 10 Jul 89 00:19:15 GMT
References: <1694993@UBCMTSG.BITNET> <YYhvN5y00XofM2Nnxp@andrew.cmu.edu>
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA
Lines: 33
>From: xuxian zhao <USERZHAX@UBCMTSG.Bitnet>
>
>
>NEWS MEDIA BE BLAMED FRO WANG DAN'S ARREST?
> I seems to me that, by reading the newspapers, the news
>media might be responsible for the arrest of Wang Dan.
> below was what I read:
> "Two Taiwanese reporters said a colleague was taken away
> by security forces after he was reported to have met
> with fugitive student leader Wang Dan." --- July 3.
> "Chinese authorities have arrested Wang Dan" on July 6.
> --- July 8.
> The reported interviewing with Wang Dan would definitly give
>clues to the Government to find Wang.
> Could someone investigate in this incident to make it clear
>whether the news media were responsible or not for the arrest
>and make it sure that they should never ever do such things
>again if they were.
When I first heard about the news from the net, that was my reaction too.
And I made a similiar posting. But on further reading I found that it was
Wang Dan who contacted the reporter requesting a meeting, the reporters did
made some precautions (left with 3 cars going to 3 different locations). So
it may not be the responsibility of the news media. Still in the near
future they should avoid contact any of the people in hiding, should avoid
reporting on how people escaped.
/* Disclaimer: All statments and opinions expressed are my own */
/* Edmund K. Lai */
/* Apple Computer, MS65-B */
/* 20525 Mariani Ave, */
/* Cupertino, CA 95014 */
/* (408)974-6272 */
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!SCRI1.SCRI.FSU.EDU!KRISHNAN Sun Jul 16 17:08:13 PDT 1989
Article 20496 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!SCRI1.SCRI.FSU.EDU!KRISHNAN
>From: KRISHNAN@SCRI1.SCRI.FSU.EDU (LAZER)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: running-dog consular Liu Zhanxiang in Vancouver
Message-ID: <890708153143.20208cf6@SCRI1.SCRI.FSU.EDU>
Date: 8 Jul 89 19:31:43 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 11
I want to make sure who this Liu Zhanxiang is. I know a person who has the
same name is a consular somewhere, so if this is the same person you
guys in Canada can contact with me.
Mr.Liu is tall and thin with a strong Northeast accent, who was a lecturer
at Physics Dept.,Beijing Normal Univ. His wife's last name is Jia3, who
used to be the general secretary of the communist youth league at the same
Univ. as his husband.
If this is that running-dog consular at Vancouver, I just want to tell him
that if he doesn't quit threating Chinese students I will reveal all his
family's information, and perhaps we can tell our fellow people in the
home to do the same harassment to his family.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!blake!oregon!howardl Sun Jul 16 17:09:01 PDT 1989
Article 20499 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!blake!oregon!howardl
>From: howardl@oregon.uoregon.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: ABOUT THE ARRESTS
Message-ID: <5143@oregon.uoregon.edu>
Date: 10 Jul 89 05:56:34 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon
Lines: 66
ABOUT ARRESTED INTELLECTUALS
HEADACHES
Arrests of intellectuals are reported daily. I am very sad to
see the development of such tragic events. I was amazed to see
in Chen Xitong's report so many names of leading intellectuals in
social sciences.
How is the government going to deal with the arrested? Here
are some possibilities:
1. Make them confess publically. This is the most beneficial
one for the CCP. They will get little response from the world,
humiliate all the demonstrators, and "educate" all the people in
China. It is hard to achieve because many arrested may refuse to
do as told.
2. Kill them, maybe some, and jial the others. They are
unlikely to kill any because the consequence maybe bad for their
purposes. Jialing them will result in numerous demonstrations in
the future.
3. Keep them detained forever without giving a trial and
sentence. This is against the law which requires either
conviction or release.
4. Release all of them after "educating" them. This is the
second possible option with the danger of setting bad examples
for future demonstrators.
Strictly speaking, these people are more academic than
political. But this may be a stronger reason for the current
leaders to persecute them because it is much harder to kill ideas
than kill people. These intellectuals brought people ideas.
There are three serious headaches in regard to intellectuals
for CCP:
1. How to deal with the arrested?
2. How to deal with thousands of students abroad?
3. How to deal with Fang and those at large?
It is an impossible task solving any of the above.
FUTURE
A government that is afraid of ideas is not going to have a
bright future, for it is just too weak.
When I read Liu Xiaobo, Liu Zaifu, Jin Guantao, Yan Jiaqi, and
their comrades, I fell proud as a chinese. I found creativity,
insights, beautiful imaginations and strict logic, and above all,
courage, in their works. "One's work is like oneself," this old
chinese saying tells us what kind of people they are. As
democratic fighters, pioneers of theoretical work, and messangers
of the political spring in China, they deserve to be called the
"backbones" of China. If a nation has such intellectuals, this
nation bounds to have some hope for the future.
Persecuting these excellent people is committing suiside. No
regime which persecutes intellectuals lasts long. Any rational
leader knows how important it is to keep academic freedom in
building a country. The current guys in charge of China have
gone insane.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!wasatch!ee-kz Sun Jul 16 17:10:29 PDT 1989
Article 20505 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!wasatch!ee-kz
>From: ee-kz@wasatch.utah.edu (Keming Zhou)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: The Student Association at Your Univ. Can Help Us Lobbying
Keywords: J-1 2-yr waiver, Lobbying
Message-ID: <2159@wasatch.utah.edu>
Date: 10 Jul 89 18:13:25 GMT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
Lines: 16
A few days ago, one of the Chinese students here at Univ. of Utah
talked to the Associated Students of the University of Utah (ASUU, the
student association at this univerisity) and found that it is a very
good way for the student leaders to do the lobbying for us. Currently,
the student leaders wanted to do something for the Chinese students
here. But sometimes they don't know what to do. After we gave the
information about Pelosi's and Gorton's Bills to one of the leaders in
charge of public affairs, he called the two congressmen in Utah who
have not yet cosponsored the bill right away. He said he will continue
pushing them. He also said that he will bring the information to the
national student leaders meeting next month at Berkeley, Calif. and
ask other student leaders to do the same thing.
If the student association at your school has not done anything on
lobbying the bills, this is the time to ask them. I believe most
student leaders will support us.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ucsd!hub!engmat.UCSB.Edu!heng Sun Jul 16 17:11:42 PDT 1989
Article 20514 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ucsd!hub!engmat.UCSB.Edu!heng
>From: xiuqiu@sbitp.bitnet
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Attn: USTC 784 students!
Message-ID: <2047@hub.UUCP>
Date: 10 Jul 89 21:40:00 GMT
Expires: July 31, 1989
Sender: news@hub.UUCP
Reply-To: xiuqiu@sbitp.bitnet
Organization: University of California, Santa Barbara
Lines: 5
We are compiling addresses of USTC 784 fellows. If you haven't been in
touch with us, please send e-mail to Gang_Li@um.cc.umich.edu.
Anyone who knows our fellow student Hao Zhijing and wants to know more about
his tragic death please also contact us.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!WSUVM1.BITNET!FAN Sun Jul 16 17:12:46 PDT 1989
Article 20521 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!WSUVM1.BITNET!FAN
>From: FAN@WSUVM1.BITNET
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Bad Things That Qian Xuesen did in U.S.A.
Message-ID: <Added.4YiD9mS00Ui3EOik43@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 11 Jul 89 01:31:45 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 8
X-Unparsable-Date: Mon, 10 Jul 89 11:58:24 PLT
Since Mr.Qian Xuesen published an article in People's Daily to
support the Deng-Yuang-Li government, we need to do some thing to this
guy(Qian Xuesen). It is suggested that someone in this country try to
find some materials from some libraries about the bad things that
Qian Xuesen did during he was living in U.S.A. For example, some
illegal things that Mr.Qian Xuesen did here. The reason is that
Qian Xuesen could not hate U.S. so much without some very special reason.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!WSUVM1.BITNET!FAN Sun Jul 16 17:13:02 PDT 1989
Article 20522 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!WSUVM1.BITNET!FAN
>From: FAN@WSUVM1.BITNET
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Ugly Chinese!?
Message-ID: <Added.MYiHcZ200Ui3QaNU4_@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 11 Jul 89 01:36:54 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 16
X-Unparsable-Date: Mon, 10 Jul 89 15:22:14 PLT
When I learned the news that some(maybe very few) Chinese students
with F-1 visa is against the Pelosi's bill because they may face the
challenge of job opportunities from J-1 guys, the famous name
"UGLY CHINESE" comes to my mind immediately. Those people against this
bill should know that the bill will protect many Chinese students and
scholars from persecution upon their returning to China at present and
this is the real essence of the bill. A bill can save even one single
live is definitely a GOOD BILL. No doubt about it.
On the other hand, any good guy should not be afraid of this kind
of challenge, no matter what kind of visa he/her has. This is United
States, a country full of competitions. A bad guy is always hard to
find a good position in U.S., no matter what kind of visa he/she has or
whether he/she is a U.S. citizen or not. It can be seen everywhere in
this country that some good foreigners got better positions than some
not so good US citizens. The competition is truth in U.S.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cica!iuvax!daemon Sun Jul 16 17:15:00 PDT 1989
Article 20540 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cica!iuvax!daemon
>From: jade::hanj (JI HAN)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Posting for a friend's friend
Message-ID: <23175@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu>
Date: 11 Jul 89 04:57:52 GMT
Sender: daemon@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu
Lines: 99
The subject tells it all.
J. Han
*********************Original Mail**************************
Hi,
Could you please distribute the following and the next mail
to your China-net? Thanks!
I received the following from a friend who asked me to distribute it. For
your reference I also post the English translation of the essay by Lu Hsun.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Random Thoughts
In these few months, I find that there are two kinds of Americans.
One includes all the people I know: my professors and fellow students,
and many I have not met. I feel that their starting point is their conscience
and morality to determine their attitude towards the tragedy in China,
towards the Chinese people and the Chinese government.
The other kind are some of the influential prominents with whom
ordinary people like me have no chance to meet. For example, the person who
opened the Gate of China and involved in some other "Gate", Mr. Nixon; and the
person who opened our mind on the theories of elemental particles and
fundamental interactions, who was kind enough to go back and forth from the
United States to Mainland China and Taiwan -- often invited as guest of Deng
-- which gave chance to poor students like me to learn about parity non-
conservation or gauge theories back in China, about whom every Chinese knows,
of whom every Chinese is proud for his academic achievement, the respected
Nobel Prize Laureate, Prof. C.N. Yang. I do believe that they have their
conscience, too, and I do believe most of them are very decent people -- those
liked to do sneaky recording business and cover-up are few. Also I don't mind
someone being guest of CCP leaders before the Beijing Massacre happened. Well,
this kind of people, their starting point is "interest", as big as the national
strategic interest of the United States, or as small as, perhaps, their
personal interest.
About these two kinds of people, my view is, the former is very
emotional, while the latter seems quite "rational". Who is right? Who is wrong?
It's really hard to say. Frankly speaking, I would say in the short term
the standing point of the "rationalists" is probably more solid.
I quite respect the latter group, as they claim that the "rational" way,
not to impose any further sanctions and boycott, will be more benifitial to
our people. However, I am not very grateful for that. I only appreciate the
former group, who clearly showed their support to the Chinese people seeking
freedom and democracy and condemned the Chinese government explicitly.
I always think that the pain of our people has one of its origins
being the shamelessness of the leaders with no conscience. The communist
leaders did things like what they called "Yang 2 Mou 2" or "Open Conspiracy",
"seduce the snake out of the hole and then beat it". Sixty-three years ago,
the great writer Lu Hsun in his essay "In Memory of Miss Liu Ho-chen", strongly
condemned the brutality of the Tuan Warlord government. Today, the military
government of Deng/Li/Yang/Jiang is more brutal than Tuan's. As long as
dominated by the dictators who don't know what is decency, who have with no
sense of shame, yet have all the power, the Chinese people will have the
possibility of being butchered at any time. Let's just look back. From
March 18 in the fifteenth year of the Republic of China to June 4, 1989 of the
People's Republic, history repeated itself -- only even more cruel: from more
than forty then to thousands killed now.
Therefore, we must stress on the morality and decency. If we don't
insist in moral stand and give strong discontent signal to the Beijing
authority, history will definitely repeat again and will be more cruel and
more cruel! The support and good will of the majority of the American
people, even just in their hearts or in words, are far more important to
the future of our nation, our people than the "rational" policy of business
as usual. After all, we can see that the reasons for the success of the
United Stated, first is a democratic system set up by the fathers of this
nation, second is the people's emphasis on the morality of their leaders.
As recent examples, we have Gary Hart not able to continue his campaign,
Jim Wright's resignation. Not as recent, Nixon resigned because of the
WaterGate affair.
The American people are lucky. They have (more or less) real
election. Those as wise as the one responsible for skulduggery in the
WaterGate building, would resign. As to those who are not as wise, like the
Ohio representative who seduced a minor and refused to resign, people will
at most torelate them for a few more years. The sorrow of the Chinese people
is, the machine guns of the dictators are still pointing to us. Those
massacred our brothers and sisters in the Gate of Heavenly Peace square, will
still be in power for a long time, and they will continue to persecute or
even execute the survivors, to suppress any new oppositions. Alas, this gate
and that gate, the power and fate of the people can be so different!
For the long term future of the Chinese nation, the wise, great
strategist, once the "old friend" of the Chinese people, Mr. Nixon, the
great physicist, once a son of the Chinese people, Prof. Yang, please,
I appeal to you: Do Not Give Any More Of Your "Rational" Suggestions To
The Always Slow And Out Of Phase Mr. Bush!!!
by TANG, Yu Shu
---End---
(I fear that some day the "rational" thinkers might turn me in to
the Butchers so I did not put my real name.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ccuab1.uab.es!IUTS0 Sun Jul 16 17:17:09 PDT 1989
Article 20559 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ccuab1.uab.es!IUTS0
>From: IUTS0@ccuab1.uab.es
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: China-Net Directory (Worldwide)
Message-ID: <8907111610.AA19489@jade.berkeley.edu>
Date: 11 Jul 89 18:09:00 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 4
We should get more countries on line. We need China-Net coordinators in
New Zealand, France, Italy, Japan. Does anyone have contacts in these
or other countries?
Sean Golden, iuts0@ccuab1.uab.es
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!gem.mps.ohio-state.edu!ginosko!uunet!yale!FENG Sun Jul 16 17:21:12 PDT 1989
Article 20564 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!gem.mps.ohio-state.edu!ginosko!uunet!yale!FENG
>From: FENG@DUVM.BITNET
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: An eyewitness account from ChengDu
Message-ID: <66102@yale-celray.yale.UUCP>
Date: 11 Jul 89 17:31:05 GMT
Sender: root@yale.UUCP
Organization: Drexel University, USA
Lines: 390
The following is an eyewitness report on what happened in Chengdu,
Sichuan, with the name of the author deleted. FYW
The Massacre in China:
A Report from the Provinces -- CHENGDU, SICHUAN PROVINCE
10 June, 1989:
I was in Chengdu, Sichuan, from Friday, 2 June 1989, to
Wednesday, 7 June 1989, and experienced the main period of disturbances
and violence. The following is a brief report on what I experienced.
It is written in order to (a) provide some perspective on what was
happening in at least one of the provincial capitals, and (b) comply
with the wishes of many of my Chinese friends and acquaintances who
implored me to get the story out about what was happening.
The following report relies both on my own observations and
experiences as well as on eyewitness reports by chinese and Americans in
Chengdu with whom I spoke. I will in the narrative not distinguish
between these sources of information but would be happy to fill in upon
individual requests. The report consists of two parts: (a) a
chronological narrative of events as they are known to me, and (b) some
additional observations.
NOTE: THE INFORMATION IN THIS REPORT MAY BE FREELY
USED BY ANYONE. HOWEVER, I REQUEST THAT MY NAME NOT BE
PUBLISHED IN CONJUNCTION WITH IT, UNLESS SPECIFICALLY
CLEARED WITH ME. I AM KNOWN TO THE CHINESE AUTHORITIES
AS BEING CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH SOME INDIVIDUALS IN
CHENGDU. THEIR FREEDOM, SAFETY, AND HEALTH IS IN
SERIOUS JEOPARDY AND WILL BE UNDER FURTHER THREAT, IF
MY NAME APPEARS IN THE NEWSPAPERS IN CONJUNCTION WITH
INFORMATION THAT COULD BE TIED TO THEM.
A. A CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS
Friday, 2 June, 1989
I arrived in Chengdu from Shanghai on the evening of that day
and checked into JIN JIANG HOTEL. It was reported to me that a
significant group of student demonstrators and hunger strikers had been
holding out on the steps fronting the SICHUAN EXHIBITION CENTER facing
the end of RENMIN NANLU where the latter street runs into RENMIN DONGLU
in a T-shaped intersection. The Jin Jiang Hotel is located on Renmin
Nanlu, about four blocks south of the Exhibition center. The hotel is
one of the major facilities for foreigners in Chengdu and contains also
the American Consulate General as well as the living quarters of the
consular staff.
The Exhibition Center is fronted to the south, facing Renmin
Nanlu, by a broad flight of steps with a giant statue of Mao in front of
it. It was on these steps that the students were located. Some of them
had been on hunger strike for some time, while others seemed to
participate in the occupation in shifts. Thus, the actual number of
students present seemed to fluctuate, with about 100-200 on the steps at
the time of my arrival.
The number of students on the streets had been declining. On
that Friday, 80% of students were back in their classes,and classes were
back to normal operation. Tensions had increased, however, during the
last couple of days. For one, although Chinese media kept a complete
black-out on what was going on in Beijing or elsewhere, a private
information network was active and transmitted reports that army units
had moved in on Tiananmen Square but were either inactive or had perhaps
been disarmed or partially disarmed by the students there. It was
expected that the government would take sterner measures, and tensions
were therefore quite high.
Perhaps more important, two days prior a group of students had
staged a sit-in on a major road to disrupt traffic (and probably to
prevent trucks carrying troops from moving through). Some trucks did
come through, however, and rolled over about six or seven of the
demonstrators, injuring them gravely. Two of them died within the next
day. Memorial wreaths and posters were displayed on the steps of the
Exhibition Center.
Saturday, 3 June, 1989
I made visits to the Exhibition Center on the morning and
evening of that day. The steps were solidly filled with students, and
largle crowds of people filled the streets below them for several blocks
in all three directions, but mainly to the south on Renmin Nanlu. There
was no mistaking that the crowds were very supportive of the studnets,
although they seemed generally relaxed. Food vendors sold all manner of
snacks and drinks, and people were joking and behaving more as if this
were a Sunday outing. However, over the course of the day, rumors
continued to circulate abouat the possibility of a military crackdown,
and there was a visible increase in tension.
As I made my visits to the Exhibition Center, I was warned by
Chinese friends not to take pictures. A foreign student of Japanese
natioinality had been observed doing so about two weeks earlier; his
visa was cancelled, and he was told to leave. I was told that there
were a significant number of police agents in the crowd, some with
cameras to take pictures both of demonstrators and onlookers and
sympathizers. I was also warned to be careful in the hotel, as many of
its rooms were supposed to be bugged and plainclothes security people
with minicameras were around to photograph contact between Chinese
nationals and foreigners.
The Sichuan University campus was completely quiet. There were
small groups of people along a display of big character posters which
contained not only accusations against the government and exhortations
to friends and comrades but also some very moving letters of farewell to
parents by some students who were on hunger strike and determined to
hold out until death, if necessary. I learned that an "Empty the Campus
Movement" had been declared by student leaders and that many students
were going home. As I found out later, however, they were unable to do
so, because police patrols at the railway station prevented students
from boarding trains.
Sunday, 4 June, 1989
Quite early on Sunday morning news began to trickle through
about the massacre in Beijing, although reports were extremely
fragmentary and highly discrepant. The Voice of America, BBC World
News, and private contacts were the major sources; none of them seemed
to have a good grasp of what was really going on. National and
international telephone services remained in place, although they
deteriorated considerably in quality as the day went on. I spent a good
portion of the day outside of town, where life went its normal way, as
was the case for most sections of Chengdu. However, in those sections
where the students and crowds of peopole were concentrated tensions rose
precipitously. By afternoon, rumors were rife that a natioinal
crackdown had been ordered and that all the provincial capitals where
student demonstrations had been held would be attacked by nightfall by
the People's Liberation Army.
By late afternoon/early evening, the first sounds of exploding
tear gas canisters and the dull, cannon-like reports of concussion
grenades could be heard from the direction of the Exhibition Center. I
tried to visit the place of action but was uaable to get closer than one
block. It was clear, however, that at that time the action was limited
largely to tear gas and concussion grenades. Nevertheless, some people
were hurt, and ambulances laboriously made their way back and forth
through the crowds. Everytime an ambulance came through with wounded,
the crowd broke out in applause and cheers in support of those being
carried away.
I had dinner with a group of American friends at a small
road-side restaurant near the Jin Jiang Hotel. Later, around 8 p.m., I
went to the 9th-floor rooftop restaurant of the hotel to observe the
action from there. Throughout that period, the intensity of the volleys
increased to the point where the impression was of a city under heavy
cannon fire. In spite of this, however, the crowds did not disperse.
With the onset of darkness, the security forces moved in in large
numbers, wielding truncheons, knives, and electric cattle prods. I
heard some isolated fire from automatic rifles, but there was not much
of it. I was unable to ascertain the composition of the force, but it
seems to have contained elements of both the police and the People's
Liberation Army.
Most of the action consisted of isolating groups of
demonstrators and stabbing them and beating them to the ground. There
is no question about the fact that none of the demonstrators were armed.
The work of the security formces, on the other hand, was brutal in the
extreme. Even after they had beaten demonstrators down, they would
continue working on them with truncheons and knives until they were
motionless. There was a pattern to it: with males, the preferred area
of attack was the head, with females it was the abdomen. Numerous
individual acts of brutality occurred. I heard one report, although I
was unable to confirm it, of a women being raped by three soldiers and
then having an electric cattle prod inserted into her vagina. The
police and army violence was random. Even people who lay on the ground
and pleaded for mercy were clubbed. There was no age discrimination.
Again, there was no way of confirming this, but I heard from several
people that the youngest victim was a four months old baby, and the
oldest a woman in her seventies. I also heard several reports of a six
year old child having been killed.
In the confrontation, demonstrators retaliated by throwing
pieces of ripped-up asphalt, other things they could grab, and setting
fire to busses, trucks and armored personnel carriers. Between ten and
eleven at night, there was also evidence of a major fire which turned
out to be the "People's Market" in the block immediatedly to the
southeast of the Exhibition Center. Essentially the whole block burned
to the ground and was still smoldering for much of the next day. The
security forces and fire brigades did not move in on the arson scene
until about two hours after the fire had been set. The streets were
largely cleared of demonstrators by the early morning hours of Monday,
and there was no evidence of troops by 7 a.m., Monday, when I visited
the scene of the action and surveyed the situation in some detail.
It was at first essentially impossible to get reliable figures
on the number of dead and wounded. Claims ranged from ten or twenty to
as high as one thousand. Only slowly did some more reliable information
emerge. A doctor from one of the four major hospitals in Chengdu
reported privately that 27 people had died in that hospital. One may
assume that similar numbers apply to the other hospitals. The situation
was complicated, because the army had given orders to the hospitals not
to accept any wounded students. This order was particularly enforced at
the two university hospitals, and I heard that at least in one hospital
some staff members were arrested for disobeying army orders. It also
appears that not nearly everybody made it to a hospital. Ambulance
services were difficult and chaotic and deterriated as the night
progressed. Some people were taken to hospitals by taxis and on
bicycles, but it seems that some did not get to medical facilities at
all. In any event, a general consensus emerged eventually, that
somewhere around 300 to 400 people were killed and up to a thousand
wounded.
Monday, 5 June, 1989
When I made a detailed tour of the battle scence at 7 a.m.,
about 20 or so students were back on the steps of the Exhibition Center,
and crowds were beginning to gather again on the streets in fornt of it.
No troops were visible, however. Indeed, throughout that day, not a
single policeman, including traffic police, were visible anywhere in the
city. It was explained to me that they were staying out of sight,
because the crowds were so enraged about the events of the previous
night that they would immediately attack solitary police officers or
army men. Also, while bicycle traffic went on pretty much as normal,
and there were some busses and trucks on the road, there were virtually
no private cars. Again, I was told that most private cars were
associated by party officials and army and police brass, and that even
the few private citizens who owned cars were afraid of being mistaken
for being officials and preferred to leave their cars at home.
In general, the day was quiet. I bicycled around the city, had
several meetings related to my professional interests. At some point in
the day, rumors began to spread that even a bigger crackdown than the
previous night had been ordered for Monday night. In spite of these
rumors, crowds in front of the Exkhibition Center and in Renmin Nanlu
continued to increase throughout the day. They were extremely friendly
to foreigners, anxious to tell what had happened the previous night. I
was approached by a number of students who spoke English as well as by
some simple laborers who did not. One of their manin concerns was that
the foreigners should know what had happened and tell the rest of the
world about it. Somebody adviced me: "If you get into trouble, say you
are from VOA. People will help you immediately."
People at Sichuan University were extremely gloomy and feared
the worst, particularly those faculty members who were known as liberals
and as having sympathized with the students. Rumors had started to
circulate that the army was ordered to occupy the university and that a
general crackdown on intellecturals was impending. An announcement in
Beijing had named intellecturals associating with counterrevolutionary
foreigners as one of four groups of people responsible for the "student
violence".
By about 6:30 p.m., some staff members of the Jin Jiang Hotel
warned a few of the foreigners living there that they should not venture
outside the building, as the Hotel would be attacked that night. The
crowds of people were solid on Renmin Nanlu through the four blocks form
the Exhibition Center to the hotel. Nevertheless, the throng outside
the hotel seemed peaceful enough. But around 6 p.m. one began hearing
the explosions of tear gas and concussion grenades further up to street
again. Around 8:30 or 9 o'clock a melee broke out between demonstrators
and security forces who had materialized in front of the hotel, rocks
were thrown, property in front of the building was demolished, some
plate glass windows were broken, and fires were set in front of the
hotel and (a small one) in the lobby. The hotel was reported under
attack.
The American Consul General rounded up whatever Americans he
could get hold of, and they barricaded themselves inside his appartment
on the second floor. Meanwhile, the security forces closed the wrought
iron gates in front of the hotel, in the process isolating some 100 to
200 demonstrators inside the compound, and then proceeded to give them
the same treatment they had meted out the previous night at the
Exhibition Center. An American watching the situation from his window
was so shocked by what he saw that he was barely able to speak about it
the next day. People were beaten with truncheons until they fell to the
ground. Once they were on the ground, several army mem would jump on
them, stomp on them and beat them more.
Outside the front gates, the battle between the security forces
and the demonstrators seesawed back and forth until about 1 a.m., when a
large contingent of army troops arrived and cleared the street.
Confrontations between people and troops continued elsewhere in the
area, however, and a large movie theatre was burned down. Unlike the
previous night, the police prevented ambulances from operating entirely.
Thus, dead and wounded could only be transported away on bicycles. At
the Jin Jiang Hotel, about 30-50 people were critically wounded or
killed. They were supposedly taken away by an army truck, although I
have no confirmation of this. The next morning, items of clothings,
shoes, and sandals lost and left behind were the only evidence
remaining. I have no information on how many people were wounded or
killed that night elsewhere in the city.
Tuesday, 6 June, 1989
I made my rounds again by foot and on bicycle. By 8 a.m., all
security forces had once again disappeared, except for a small force of
truncheion-equipped and behelmetted army troops who patroled the
compound of the Jin Jiang Hotel inside the locked gates, in shifts of
about 10 men each. Most of the male employees of the hotel were rounded
up and outfitted with four foot long clubs made of construction steel.
It appears that they were also given some rudimentary training in the
use of these clubs. At the Exhibition Center, a small handful of
students had appeared again on the steps, and smaller crowds of people
were congregating once more in the street. Small crowds of curious
onlookers assembled in front of the gates of the Jin Jiang as well as in
front of the closed gates of the Minshan Hotel on the opposite side of
the street. The Minshan Hotel had evidently also experienced some
disturbance the previous night, but nothing as serious as the Jin Jiang.
In the late afternoon, the Americn Consulate issued a travel
advisory urging all U.S. citizens to leave the country. All foreign
companies with personnel in Chengdu that I was aware of also recalled
their people. While there were small crowds on Remin Nanlu in the
morning, by noon they sudeenly started to disappear, and in the
afternoon and evening, the street had an almost funereal appearance.
Martial Law had been declared, and rumors were going around of a major
army attack having been ordered that night. Rumors persisted also that
the army would occupy Sichuan University and round up dissidents. In
the Jin Jiang Hotel, troops were reinforced, and the truncheon-equipped
employees were stationed at strategic locations throughout the building.
However, the night was uneventful.
In the evening, an hour-long news feature was broadcast on
television, dealing for the first time, and virtually exclusively, with
the disturbances and showing extensive news clips from Beijing as well
as a few other cities such as Xian and Shanghai. There was an item
dealing with Chengdu, showing destruction caused by rioters in the Jin
Jiang Hotel compound. The tenor of the news cast was focused on the
destructiveness and violence of the rioters, disavowing any
agressiveness on the side of the security forces. This was further
reinforced by the following program which showed an army general meeting
with 20 selected newsmen, where the general denied any deaths caused by
the army but stressed that some two or three thousand troops had been
wounded or killed by the rioters.
Wednesday, 7 June, 1989
Chengdu was quiet throughout the morning, with few people on the
streets near the Exhibition Center. Rumors were that the big army
action had been postponed from Tuesday night to Wednesday night.
However, I have no knowledge of what happened that night. I left
Chengdu on the regularly scheduled CAAC flight to Hong Kong at 1:25 p.m.
The scene at the airport was chaotic, but the flight left basically on
time. There were a few PRC Chinese on the flight. I had been told that
all domestic flights had been halted, but did see some other flights
leaving which I presume must have been domestic flights.
B. Some General Observations
The events described above speak for themselves. Nevertheless,
I want to append a few general observations that contain interpretations
and surmises based in part on my own observations and in part on things
I was told by Chinese contacts.
1. Several of my Chinese friends agreed that, in spite of the
crushing of some demonstrators on the road, by 2 June the
situation in Chengdu had returned to near normal and that
it would almost certainly have improved further had there
not been an armed intervention.
2. There is every indication that the armed internvention was
ordered not so much to estalblish order but to crush the
student movement. This is indicated by the fact that
students were prevented from going home, a move that would
surely have contributed to quieting conditions in Chengdu,
and the mannaer in which the armed forces acted on the
street.
3. There is strong suspicion, and some circumstances evidence
to support it (although no real proof), that the burning of
the People's Market as well as the attack on Jin Jiang
Hotel were instigated by army or police provacateurs in an
attempt to demonstrate the violent nature of the student
movement. The attaack on the Jin Jiang Hotel seemed
partilcularly odd, since the students as well as their
sympathizers among the people considered the foreigners
living in the hotel as their major allies.
4. Although it was clear from the outset that the students
enjoyed broad popular support, until Sunday night they were
the primary actors in the democracy movement. With the
army action on Sunday night, however, there was a profound
change in the movement, and it became a broad mass
movement. This does not mean that it will succeed against
the onslught of the armed forces. It is clear, however,
that the hatred of the government and of the army is very
deep and almost universal amony the urban population of
Chengdu.
5. There is unspeakable anger, grief, anxiety, and despair
among the students and faculty of all the universities in
Chengdu City. Everybody expects a period of repression of
intellectuals, of freedom of speech, and of a broad range
of freedoms slowly gained since the beginning of the "Open
Door" policy. Without execption, everybody I spoke to is
looking to the West for moral and other support, yet is
fearful at the same time that any overt contacts of
individuals with Western colleagues and institutions may
bring them more harm.
-THE END-
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!eclair!jyee Sun Jul 16 17:21:40 PDT 1989
Article 20567 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!eclair!jyee
>From: jyee@eclair.berkeley.edu (James Yee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Japanese companies
Message-ID: <30023@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>
Date: 11 Jul 89 19:31:22 GMT
Sender: usenet@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Reply-To: jyee@eclair.berkeley.edu ()
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 164
=============================================
HERE'S A SHORT LIST OF JAPANESE COMPANIES THAT DO BUSINESS WITH PRC.
IT'S BY NO MEANS COMPLETE, AND WE WOULD APPRECIATE IT IF SOMEONE OUT
THERE HAS A MORE EXTENSIVE LIST OF COMPANIES. WE (SOME BERKELEY STUDENTS)
ARE PREPARING LETTERS ADVOCATING ECONOMIC SANCTIONS BY JAPANESE & OTHER
FOREIGN COMPANIES.
WE'LL BE POSTING OUR VERSION OF THE LETTER IN THE NEAR FUTURE, AND WILL
ALSO HAVE A JAPANESE VERSION AVAILABLE THROUGH FAX. PLEASE CONTACT
jyee@eclair.berkeley.edu FOR FURTHER INFORMATION.
=============================================
the list below is followed by a list of references used.
=============================================
All the companies listed have either subsidiaries or joint ventures in China.
? - indicates that the spelling of the name/title is uncertain (due to sloppy
handwriting), and should be further verified.
=============================================
FISHERY:
Taiyo Gyogyo Kabushiki Kaisha
Fax: 03-211-2082
Tel: 03-211-0811
Address: 1-2, Otemachi 1-chome, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo 100
Chairman:
President: Yushiro Amatatsu
Comments:
Reference: [2], p.8
CONSTRUCTION:
Taisei
Fax: 03-345-0481
Tel: 03-348-1111
Address: 1-25-1, Nishi-Shinjuku, Shinjuku-ku, Tokyo 163
Chairman: Hajime Sako
President: Yasuo Satomi
Comments: one of the largest general construction companies
Reference: [1], p.53
PRECISION MACHINERY:
Mabuchi Motor
Fax: 0473-85-2661
Tel: 0473-84-1111,
Address: 430, Matsuhidai, Matsudo City, Chiba Pref. 270
Chairman: Kenichi Mabuchi
President: Takaichi Mabuchi
Comments: famous small DC-motor manufacture, moving into China.
Reference: [1], p.634
ELECTRONICS:
Ikegami Tsushinki
Fax: 03-756-3930
Tel: 03-754-2121
Address: 5-6-16, Ikegami, Ota-ku, Tokyo 146
Chairman: Noriko Saito
President: Katsuro Sakamoto
Comments: Broadcasting equipment.
Reference: [1], p.669
Hosiden Electronics
Fax: 06-727-3856
Tel: 0729-93-1010
Address: 1-4-33, Kitakyuhoji, Yao City, Osaka Pref. 581
Chairman:
President: Satoru Furuhashi?
Comments: expanding cosignment production in China
Reference: [1], p.682
Ohkura Electric
Fax: 03-398-1992
Tel: 03-398-5111
Address: 3-20-8, Narita-Nishi, Suginami-ku, Tokyo 166
Chairman: Yasushi Ohkura
President: Junpei Ohkura
Comments:
Reference: [1], p.693
Tabai Espec
Fax: 03-433-7118
Tel: 06-358-4741
Address: 3-5-6, Tenjinbashi, Kita-ku, Osaka 530
Chairman:
President: Eiichi Koyama
Comments:
Reference: [1], p.697
AUTOMOBILE, MOTOR:
Hino Motors
Fax: 0425-86-5038
Tel: 0425-86-5011
Address: 3-1-1, Hinodai, Hino City, Tokyo 191
Chairman: Shigenobu Yamamoto
President: Tomio Futami
Comments: top truck manufacture in Japan of Toyota Motor Group.
Emphasize development of Chinese market.
Reference: [1], p.7??
Kayaba Industry
Fax: 03-436-6759
Tel: 03-435-3511
Address: 2-4-1, Hamamatsu-cho, Minato-ku, Tokyo 105
Chairman: Tadashi Shirakawa
President: Ken Tanabe
Comments: manufacture shock absorbers. export technology to China.
Reference: [1], p.760
Suzuki Motor
Fax: 0534-56-2109
Tel: 0534-40-2111
Address: 300, Takatsuka, Kamimura, Hamanagun Shizuoka 432
Chairman: Seiichi Inagawa
President: Osamu? Suzuki
Comments:
Reference: [1], p.771
Yamaha Motor
Fax: 05383-6-1159
Tel: 05383-2-1115
Address: 2500, Shingai, Iwata City, Shizuoka Pref. 438
Chairman: Genichi Kawakami
President: Hideto Eguchi
Comments:
Reference: [1], p.773
Koito Mfg.
Fax: 03-447-1510
Tel: 03-443-7111
Address: 4-8-3, Takanawa, Minato-ku, Tokyo 108
Chairman: Toshiro Ohtake
President: Takao Matsuura
Comments:
Reference: [1], p.776
GENERAL:
Hitachi, LTD
Fax: 03-258-2375,6
Tel: 03-258-1111
Address: 6, Kanda Surugadai 4-chome, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo 101
Chairman:
President: Katsushige Mita
Comments: recently completed a deal with China
Reference: [2], p.???
=============================================
[1] - Japan Company Handbook (JCH), 1989
HF 5181 J36 1989:1 SOCS
not very extensive, but complete listing of companies
[2] - Diamond's Japan Business Directory, 1988
HC 461 D5 1988 SOCS
extensive listing of companies. possibly outdated.
[3] - Foreign Affiliated Companies in Japan
HC 462.9 G3 1987 SOCS
In Japanese. Some PRC affiliated companies. Has contact addresses
of various agencies in Japan.
=============================================
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!WVNVM.BITNET!U1090 Sun Jul 16 17:22:06 PDT 1989
Article 20570 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!WVNVM.BITNET!U1090
>From: U1090@WVNVM.BITNET ("Bo Peng")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: CONFUSION ABOUT THE PROPOSED NATIONWIDE MEETING
Message-ID: <8907111946.AA22454@jade.berkeley.edu>
Date: 11 Jul 89 19:42:40 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 3
I'm confused about what's going on for the proposed nationwide meeting. U. of
Chicago is still trying to be the host while some are talking about it's being
held on July 17 or sth like that. Could anyone help me out of the confusion?
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cwjcc!mailrus!ames!haven!mimsy!yuan Sun Jul 16 17:23:05 PDT 1989
Article 20576 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cwjcc!mailrus!ames!haven!mimsy!yuan
>From: yuan@mimsy.UUCP (Xiaoping Yuan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Salon for China Problem Discussion in UMCP
Message-ID: <18486@mimsy.UUCP>
Date: 11 Jul 89 16:32:21 GMT
Reply-To: yuan@mimsy.umd.edu.UUCP (Xiaoping Yuan)
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742
Lines: 22
Hi, greetings:
A group of Chinese students concerned about the future of China
in UMCP is forming a Salon for China Problem Discussion.
The main purpose of the Salon is to create an open forum to
review the history, discuss the experience and lesson learned from the
new May 4th movement (June 4th tragedy), and explore the future. It
is a very good opportunity for every participator to have a place
to practice his/er own idea. It also provides a social place for you.
The forum will be held regularly, depending on the topics the
members prepare. All the participators are expected to be active members.
The members will be informed of the time and schedule by coordinators.
You are very welcome to join with us. If you are interested, please
let me know. I will inform you the time and location of our first gathering.
Xiaoping Yuan
Coordinator
(301) 345-0069 (H)
(301) 454-1516 (O)
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!WVNVM.BITNET!U1090 Sun Jul 16 17:23:27 PDT 1989
Article 20577 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!WVNVM.BITNET!U1090
>From: U1090@WVNVM.BITNET ("Bo Peng")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: UNIFICATION OF FORCE
Message-ID: <8907112227.AA24577@jade.berkeley.edu>
Date: 11 Jul 89 20:42:26 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 27
While I strongly support the unification of all the pro-democracy forces, I
believe it is of the same importance to be cautious and realistic in doing so.
There are hundreds of organizations now in the US. None of them has been able
to perform well enough to single itself out from others even though some have
definitely done a better job than others. And, more importantly, it seems that
there hasn't been much effective coorporation practiced. A nasty power struggl
e is likely to break out when too many people believe he himselve ought to be
the chief. And a giant organization consisting of people without enough
practise in cooporation is likely to collapse or just survive without function.
Furthermore, each failure of such an effort would disappoint some as well as
discourage them.
Wu'er Kai Xi and Yan JiaQi are natural candidates for the leaders of the future
unified organization. But we need more. The best way of generating leaders is
through performing instead of power struggle or according to the # of Chinese
students in the school.
The only way to learn how to swim is to swim. While the time for a grand uni-
fication hasn't come yet, partial, regional cooporation have been practiced to
a certain degree around some big cities. But I think it is far from effective
enough in these areas and too many schools have been left out. We should put
our attention in developing this regional cooporation for the time being, aimin
g to form a grand unification in a gradual and natural way, instead of the news
making big event when not ready.
We want the unification badly. But we want to do it right even more.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!blake!oregon!yitang Sun Jul 16 17:25:06 PDT 1989
Article 20595 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!blake!oregon!yitang
>From: yitang@oregon.uoregon.edu (TangYi@Oregon.UOREGON.EDU)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Liu Gang is My Classmate. He Needs Help
Message-ID: <5211@oregon.uoregon.edu>
Date: 12 Jul 89 01:25:29 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon
Lines: 28
Liu Gang, Who placed the third among the most wanted list of the 21
student leaders and was arested a couple of weeks ago in Bao3 Ding4, was my
classmate when I was in the Graduate Program in the Physics Department of
Peking University.
I know him well. He is a person of bravety and deep thought ... and
more.
I have finally found a way to contact his family through his girl
friend Miss Zhang, Who is a fouth grade student in Zheng4 Fa3 University.
I have already sent back to his family $300, which is part of the
donation from the Chinese students in University of Oregon. I hope he can
have a chance to use that money.
He gave a lot to the pro-demoracy movement in China. We don't have
a chance to bleed at TAM square and we've got to something this time to help
those who contributed a lot in our homeland. I beleive Liu Gang is a brilliant
one of them.
He needs help. Besides his mother is suffering from cancer.
If you have any ideas about how we can help Liu Gang, you are more
than welcome to contact me.
My ph#: 503 3457702
Call before 11:00 pm and leave a message. My name is Yi1 Tang1.
My e-mail add.: yitang@oregon.uoregon.edu
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!UBVMSC.CC.BUFFALO.EDU!V111R4NA Sun Jul 16 17:27:06 PDT 1989
Article 20611 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!UBVMSC.CC.BUFFALO.EDU!V111R4NA
>From: V111R4NA@UBVMSC.CC.BUFFALO.EDU
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: RE: Bad Things Qian Suesen Did in the U.S...
Message-ID: <8907121551.AA14417@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 12 Jul 89 15:46:00 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 9
I once heard a story that Mr. Qian decided to go back
because he felt discriminated racially. He wanted to buy
a house in a white,upper-class neighborhood but was
rejected and harassed. He then decided to go back to build
Modern China thus Chinese people can stand up.
Confirmation needed.
Yenwen Wang
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU!yj1 Sun Jul 16 17:27:57 PDT 1989
Article 20619 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU!yj1
>From: yj1@CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (y)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Looking for facts regarding MuXuDi massacre
Message-ID: <CMM.0.88.616270254.yj1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: 12 Jul 89 18:10:54 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 4
There have been many eyewitness reports on the killing in TAM square or
near by streets. However I've not seen any reports on what happened in
MuXuDi where everyone says the most killing and brutality took place.
Please let me know if you know any source of information regarding it.
From polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!sun-barr!newstop!sun!stevelin!stlin Sun Jul 16 17:30:19 PDT 1989
Article 20631 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!apple!sun-barr!newstop!sun!stevelin!stlin
>From: stlin%stevelin@Sun.COM (Steven Lin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Chinese Written Language
Summary: No free lunch is free
Message-ID: <115144@sun.Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: 12 Jul 89 23:39:11 GMT
References: <8907122126.AA02673@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> <33097@apple.Apple.COM>
Sender: news@sun.Eng.Sun.COM
Reply-To: stlin@sun.UUCP (Steven Lin)
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mountain View
Lines: 42
In article <8907122126.AA02673@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> SL2YC@CC.USU.EDU writes:
>>Posting-Version: USU; site USU
>>Subject: Chinese Written Language
>>
>> Deficiencies of Chinese written language:
>>1. It is difficult to learn. Survey revealed that an illiterate English-
>>speaking adult becomes able to read newspaper after 3 to 4 weeks of schooling.
>>His Chinese-speaking counterpart has to spend 4 to 5 years to complete the
>>same task.
Chinese words are difficult to learn, all right. Chinese cooking is hard to
learn, right too. But Chinese words are related to Chinese life evolution,
so as Chinese food, they are top techniques of art.
>>2. It is easy to forget. There are little connections between speaking
>>and writing. A learner has to memorize thousands of characters one by one.
English is easy to forget too. And English words have so much similarity
of combinations that make people even more difficult to memorize. If you
want to be master of English, thousands of words work is not too much.
So is Chinese. But you are confused: may be you think why a same word
is pronounced different in Madarin, Cantonese, Manchurian, .....
This is just similiar to that people use A-Z combinations which yield
Romanic, English, Spanish, Frensh.......
>>>4. It is more difficult to consult Chinese dictionaries.
>> A suggestion: Develop an alphabet for Chinese language. Han Yu
>>Pin Yin has proved not qualified to replace Chinese characters. Another
>>set of letters must be invented.
You seem admitted that you have all difficulties when you face a foreign
creation. Even so, Russian has similiar alphabetic order, do you think
it is easy for you to learn?
There is no short cut in learning foreign language.
It is easy to proved that English has deficiencies too.
A simple example, there are too many people named John, Mike, Mary, Jack,
Scott, Terry, George........ sometimes even 1st, middle, and last name
all matched. In contrast, Chinese people have less problems in name.
Another example, sometime an English word has 15 to 20(or more) characters.
It is difficult to memorize too. Well, you know free lunch is not free.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy!byang Sun Jul 16 17:32:12 PDT 1989
Article 20644 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy!byang
>From: byang@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu (BIN YANG)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,osu.chinese
Subject: Bandit's logic and Mr. Chen Xitong's report
Message-ID: <2713@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 12 Jul 89 22:58:23 GMT
Lines: 20
Xref: polya soc.culture.china:20644
I am trying to find a word to describe my indignation when I read Chen Xitong's
report to the "People's Congress" on the "rebellion". The report is indeed
worth reading, it exposes the true ugly face of CCP.
I don't wish to comment the complete report. I only want to say a few words
about what struck most. Chen said in the report that the protesters had long
planned to create a bloody incident. Because, he said, the students said
they "would remain in the square, and the government would surely crackdown
the students", and the students also said "bloodshed will wake up the people,
and split the government." I wonder if my American friends on this net
can understand the logic Mr. Chen used here. Put it in other words, it is
like this: when a bandit wants to rob you, you refuse to give up and they
kill you. And then they accuse you of murder simply because you said "my
brother will not think of you as a good guy any more if you kill me".
Anyway, I "admire" Mr. Chen's bravery to use this bandit logic in public.
There are more "wonderful" sections in the report. I recommend everyone
to read it.
I believe, someday, not far in the future, this "excellent" report will
serve as a piece of evidence when their time comes. I believe, someday, not
far in the future, the Godess of Democracy will have her position in the TAM
square, where she belongs. People's blood will never be shed in vain.
From polya!shelby!agate!apple!rutgers!ucsd!nosc!humu!uhccux!piwei Sun Jul 16 17:32:33 PDT 1989
Article 20646 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!apple!rutgers!ucsd!nosc!humu!uhccux!piwei
>From: piwei@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Piwei Lan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Xie Xide is coming and ....
Message-ID: <4318@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu>
Date: 13 Jul 89 01:47:15 GMT
Reply-To: piwei@uhccux.UUCP (Piwei Lan)
Organization: University of Hawaii
Lines: 47
There is a piece of news worth reading and obtaining attention.
Xie, Xide, the former president of Fudan, is coming as the head of a Chinese
delegation to attend an international conference of physics here in Honolulu.
The other members are from Peking and Shanghai, respectively.
According to dependable sources, Xie were not too willing to come at the
beginning 'cause the conference is not on semiconduct. But, the Peking
government appointed her as the head. The major task for her is not for
attending the conference but for pursuading the World Bank and other
international institutes to resume their financial aid to China, at least to
resume the aid set for educational expenses.
The murderous Peking government has tasted something bitter of the economic
sanction from the western world and tries to beg new foreign investment to
infuse new blood to its chronic economy. As the first sign of break the limited
economic sanction, Xie is sent out to find a breaking point. On her agenda, one
important item is to let the WB to keep its promise to help set up an nucleir
and acceleration lab in Fudan. So, after the conference here, she might go to
NY or other cities where she can find somebody to pursuade.
The Bush administration is not resolute toward the sanction. Just a few days
ago, a few Boeing 757 were handed to the Peking government, while the delivary
was banned when the saction was first issued. It was widely
believed that the navigation system on them can be easily transfered to
military uses.
Most Chinese students here think that economic sanction do work and will
exert some pressure on this regime. When there are still massive arrest and
torture, opperesion around the country (a prof here just got back from
Canton and he saw armed police taking away people on streets and trains), why
should these countries whose saction measures were based on these facts just
disregard the facts and resume a same-as-usual attitude to deal with this
blood-handed regime? If the western world, especially the United States,
discard the principle of human rights in favor of geopolitics, what help
we chinese people can seek from outside of China? If the Fascist regime
can get away with murder, where and what is the justice? If the sanctions
were removed without major change in Chinese politics (such as rehabilitation
of the democratic movement and public trial of Deng-Yang-Li, ...), how could
the average chinese suspect that their government committed horrendous crimes?
People here in Honolulu are living thousands miles away from world political
stages. We know we can do little to influence either the US government or
the WB or other institutions, so we hope chinese students on the mainland
can possibly stop the ruse of the Deng-yang-Li regime.
Down with Facism! Freedom belongs to people!
From polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!pur-ee!songj Sun Jul 16 17:33:46 PDT 1989
Article 20658 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!iuvax!pur-ee!songj
>From: songj@pur-ee.UUCP (Jisheng Song)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Bandits logic and Mr. Chen Xitong's report
Message-ID: <12202@pur-ee.UUCP>
Date: 13 Jul 89 04:27:27 GMT
References: <2715@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Reply-To: songj@pur-ee.UUCP (Jisheng Song)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Lines: 24
In article <2713@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu> byang@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu (BIN YANG) writes:
>I am trying to find a word to describe my indignation when I read Chen Xitong's
>report to the "People's Congress" on the "rebellion". The report is indeed
>worth reading, it exposes the true ugly face of CCP.
I read it and also found it "interesting". Chen was supposed to represent
the Peking government to report to the standing committee of the national
congress about the turmoil situation in Peking, but he talked a lot about
Zhao Ziyang. Was the general secretary of the party also under his control?
Also in his report, all the "crimes" listed by him and "committed" by those
intellectuals were: publically giving speeches, publically organizing
seminars, writing open letters and publishing articles, etc, and these
"crimes" were called the attempt to overthrow the government. It is nteresting
enough to note that he admitted the government was then seriously threatened.
Those activities had not been considered as the crimes before the massacre,
now they are the evidences of convicting those intellectures. Is there a law
in China or Deng is law? Also if words can overthrow a government, how long
can you expect that government to last?
Well, that government is just too absurd to be worth arguing. Let's just try
to overthrow it.
___
From polya!shelby!rutgers!rochester!cornell!vax5!dhsy Sun Jul 16 17:42:38 PDT 1989
Article 20730 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!rutgers!rochester!cornell!vax5!dhsy
>From: dhsy@vax5.CIT.CORNELL.EDU
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Misc.visa?
Keywords: visa,culture,Chinese
Message-ID: <19022@vax5.CIT.CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 14 Jul 89 10:33:54 GMT
References: <8907122345.AA10595@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> <2050@dataio.Data-IO.COM>
Sender: news@vax5.CIT.CORNELL.EDU
Reply-To: dhsy@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Followup-To: soc.culture.china
Distribution: na
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies, Ithaca NY
Lines: 17
In article <2050@dataio.Data-IO.COM> lee@Data-IO.COM (Kyu Lee) writes:
>Amen, Amen.
>
>This is supposed to be a discussion group on Chinese cultures, not a
>lobbying organization to change one's immigration status. Am I wrong?
The visa discussion is only temporary. Everyone is welcome to bring up
other interesting topics for discussion. Besides, the visa issue is one
of those rare chances for activists and readers on SCC to learn and
practice the American style democracy. So someday someone may be able to
propose a practicable Chinese style democracy, assuming there exist
different styles.
Therefore the visa information and discussions are indeed interesting,
and this topic is valid in this NEWSgroup.
dhsy@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
From polya!shelby!agate!apple!motcsd!hpda!hpcuhb!hpindda!kimf Sun Jul 16 17:48:19 PDT 1989
Article 20800 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!apple!motcsd!hpda!hpcuhb!hpindda!kimf
>From: kimf@hpindda.HP.COM (Kim Fung)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Slide Show of Chinese Democratic Movement
Message-ID: <35780015@hpindda.HP.COM>
Date: 14 Jul 89 21:36:56 GMT
Organization: HP Information Networks, Cupertino, CA
Lines: 18
Slide show of Chinese democratic movement is available now !!!!!!!!!!
A set of 33 color slides, provided by Hong Kong students,
is available to public. The content of these slides covers
the major events and facts from April, 1989 to present.
These slides come with pre-recorded script on cassette tape
in English and in Chinese.
To order the slides, please send $33.00 (including $3.00
shipping and handling charge) to:
SUPPORT DEMOCRACY IN CHINA
P.O. BOX 32973
SAN JOSE, CA 95152-2973
For further information, please call SDC hot line:
(408) 534-1868
From polya!shelby!agate!apple!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watmath!julian!uwovax!3011_6470 Sun Jul 16 17:49:41 PDT 1989
Article 20816 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!apple!rutgers!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watmath!julian!uwovax!3011_6470
>From: 3011_6470@uwovax.uwo.ca (Dave Sheng)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: unpopular view: Keep the tie with Chinese Embassy??
Message-ID: <2874@uwovax.uwo.ca>
Date: 15 Jul 89 18:32:14 GMT
Lines: 93
I am happy to see the news that there will be a meeting of all the
Chinese students in U.S.. We certainly have a lot to discuss, and
here I would like to bring your attention to one problem, how should
we cope with the Chinese Embassy.
The conference of diplomats just ended in Beijing. Li Peng and Yang
Shangqun both expressed concern about oversea Chinese students.
Finally those butchers sensed our existence and we can expect the
embassy will soon send out their personal to persuade us to follow the
party's line.
I hope the future meeting in Chicago will arrive at a good plan of how
to deal with the Embassy in the future. Here I express some of my
personal opinion, which is probably very unpopular, and even offensive
to someone. My suggestion is that for long term consideration of the
benefit of China, we should not break ties wiht the embassy.
Let me explain my consideration. First we should remember what is our
aim. As expressed in Wuer Kaixi and Yan Jiaqi's joint statement, we
don't want armed revolution , we want peaceful reform. Peaceful reform may
be the strangest thing to our Chinese as we experinced two thousand
years of cycle of bloody repression and bloody revolution. What we
are facing is a bloody regime which makes our aim of peaceful reform
more diffcult. On our side, the bloody event make it hard for us to
cool down to think what we should do.
We really can not do much. It is not difficult at all for us to break with the
embassy completely. We will not face any personal danger because we
are protected by the U.S. and Canadian goverment. After that the only
thing we can do is to stage protest in front of embassy while Chinese
goverment will not care too much anyway, and we can fax and call back
to China, which is much less successful than VOA and HongKong people's
effort. And we will not be able to develop our organization back in
China and we will even have difficulties to develop it here in North
America as many of us still have family members back in China. Our
country will also suffer a heavy blow as the best of one generation
will be lost in America. The other consequence is that our younger
brothers and sisters will lose their chance to come here and Chinses
sicence community will be shut alone.
China needs us. China needs our expertise in science and technology.
Even the goverment knows they lose too much if they lose us. That is
where we have our weight, even though the weight is little. When we
cut our ties with the embassy completely we lose the weight we have.
When the goverment found that all students break the ties with them and
will not go back, they are going to shut the door forever which is very
harmful to China.
The other choice is to keep tie with the embassy. We don't need to
establish another organization, like independant union etc.. The name
is not important. The important thing is that the organization should
be controlled by ourselves. As most of the Chinese oversea students
know the truth of June 4 Massaccre, and we are too far away to be
controlled by the goverment, we can easily take over controll of the
existing official Association of Chinese Student and Schorlar. In
that case we could transform the official organization to a legalized
opposition. We can receive funds from the embassy while give the
goverment a headache. And this organization has the chance to develop
back in China because it is legalized and there is similar
organization back in China (Association of Students from Europe and
America, Ou1 Mei3 Tong2 Xie2 Hui4).
By keeping the tie, the goverment will still has the hope that we may
go back to China. Then we can pressure the goverment to make some
compromise. It is also possible the open door policy may be
continued. Keep the door open is important for the development of
democracy in China.
To persue such a cause needs great political skill and well calculated
steps. We have to draw some lines. For example, we should never
state that we will follow the current party's line. While in
opposition to follow them, we can make our objection on the base that
we are not convinced by the CCP propaganda as it is too diferent from
the news in western media. We can even ask them to let us send a
investigation group back to China. We can also ask the goverment to
sent back the students who went back China before the massaccre ( I am
not sure whether they are all back in America).
To achieve democracy in China is a long time process. What we are
facing is a bloody goverment. We don't have any experince. We have
to consider our actions in calculated manner and to consider the
interests of China in long term. Breaking the tie completely with
goverment may satisfy our feeling, but is it the best choice we have,
for the interest of China?
See the example of Chinese Democratic Union (Zhong Guo Ming Lian), its
development among the oversea students is so limited that we can
hardly sense its existence. Yet it is always slandered as the
"black hands" behind the student movement and that is the only time
the Chinese people heard of such an organization. We should draw some
lessons from their development.
I hope the issue will be fully discussed in the Chicago meeting.
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ANDREW.CMU.EDU!ls2r+ Sun Jul 16 17:51:11 PDT 1989
Article 20819 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ANDREW.CMU.EDU!ls2r+
>From: ls2r+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Lui Sieh)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: soc.culture.china (SCC)
Message-ID: <IYjvVby00jA1AJk1IG@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 15 Jul 89 22:19:19 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Reply-To: ls2r+rbc@andrew.cmu.edu
Lines: 156
The following is in response to a netter's suggestion that I explain
something about soc.culture.china since there are quite a number of new
netters since the birth of the Democracy Movement in China.
I. Brief introduction to SCC.
A. What is S.C.C?
S.C.C (stands for Soc.culture.china) is a newsgroup on the world-wide
computer network USENET that reaches many parts of the world such as
Europe, Canada, and Japan. This newsgroup is devoted to the discussion
of issues relating to culture. Politics is one such subgroup of culture
and it has dominated the discussion nowadays.
B. Access to S.C.C
There are quite a number of ways to access S.C.C. There are news
programs that may access USENET (sometimes known as netnews).
Contacting the school's system administrators is one way to find out how
to access S.C.C. However, for those who can not, there is a mailing
list available where S.C.C packages are sent out each day. This
voluntary rebroadcasting service of S.C.C has been established as an
effort to promote communications and understanding among Chinese
students and anyone else who is interested in China and/or Chinese
affairs. The service first started in Cornell University, then moved to
Carnegie Mellon University and is now stationed at both Yale University
and Carnegie Mellon. Yale processes the articles posted to S.C.C and
Carnegie Mellon sends those packages out the the mailing list netters.
To subscribe to S.C.C, if it is not possible to access it on the
school's computer, you may send subscriptions to these addresses:
ARPAnet: zhongguo-request@andrew.cmu.edu
BITNET: zhongguo-request%andrew@CMCCVB
UUCP: ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!zhongguo-request
...!ucbvax!andrew.cmu.edu!zhongguo-request
or you may send them directly to me at:
ARPAnet: ls2r+rbc@andrew.cmu.edu
BITNET: ls2r+rbc%andrew@CMCCVB
UUCP: ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!ls2r+rbc
It would be helpful if you used the following format:
For subscriptions, use:
Subject: Subscription to SCC
For cancellations, use:
Subject: Cancellation of SCC
Note: Make sure that you don't have access to USENET before subscribing
to the mailing list since it is very expensive and time consuming on the
computer network. Also, make sure that you have plenty of disk space
(or memory) to receive SCC packages. Many times, we receive rejections
because the netter does not have enough memory and it causes the
Redistributors to go gray :-).
B1. For BITNET netters, there is a way to subscribe to S.C.C directly.
That means *only* people on BITNET nodes should use this.
A. There is a sister mailing list. You may send your subscriptions to
LISTSERV@CMUCCVMA (or LISTSERV@VMA.CC.CMU.EDU.
The content of the body is:
Sub MD48 <fullname>
B2. There is another service for Canadian readers who can not access
S.C.C.
A. Marilyn Martin <martin@ean.ubc.ca> has set up a sub-distribution
list at UBC for SCC. She is the gateway master for CNDnet and has
kindly offered this service. I urge any Canadians to please use this
service instead of the one at S.C.C.
II. Posting articles to SCC
Abstracted from Introduction to SCC (as of Oct. 22, 1988):
[Revised 4/13/89]
Send all SCC articles to the following address:
==>>> soc-culture-china@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
[NOTE: if you can not send to the above address, then you may forward
your
article to zhongguo-request+@andrew.cmu.edu or
zhongguo-request%andrew@cmccvb
or to ls2r+rbc@andrew.cmu.edu or ls2r+rbc%andrew@cmccvb and the SCC
rebroadcasters can help you resend your article to SCC. However, this
is to be the last resort]
Please read the following carefully and be familiar with the guidelines.
Be aware of the following:
1) When the ucbvax machine is busy or down, your article may be lost.
2) Never leave the Subject (or Subj) field blank, otherwise your
articles
won't reach SCC.
3) Please send your test To: misc-test@ucbvax.berkeley.edu or
alt-test.ucbvax.berkeley.edu to make sure that you can post articles
to
Usenet. If you get echos (messages) from some nodes when you sent
the
test message, that means that you may now successfully post to SCC.
*PLEASE use the following guidelines when you write articles to SCC.
1) Keep in mind when you respond to messages on SCC that your readers
are
from all over the world and from all different backgrounds.
2) Be aware that users can not see or hear you and that personal
communication
in writing can be misunderstood if you use sarcasm or humor in your
articles. So if you wish to be funny, make it clear in your writing
and
put smiles [=> :-) or sometimes :-0] where it is necessary.
3) Be as brief as possible in your articles and try to get to the point
when
you reply to an article on SCC.
4) DO NOT BE RUDE OR INSULTING TO YOUR FELLOW NETTERS. This is just
common courtesy to your fellow Chinese as well as other people
around the
world.
5) Finally, if you do feel that you need to be insulting and rude to a
netter
for some offensive comments he made, please send them via private
e-mail
so that the other netters will not have to read it.
I hope that this explains something of S.C.C and if there are further
questions or comments, you may address them to the above addresses.
As of now, the goal of the redistributors here, we would like to see an
increase of more netters from all over the world so that effective
communication is reached. As of now, North America and Australia have
their own mailing list and maybe Europe does too but I'm not aware of
any. Also, making the rebroadcasting service much more efficient and
perhaps localized is another goal.
If there are any questions, please don't hesitate to send them. Thank
you.
-Lui Sieh
From polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ANDREW.CMU.EDU!ls2r+ Sun Jul 16 17:51:42 PDT 1989
Article 20823 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!agate!ucbvax!ANDREW.CMU.EDU!ls2r+
>From: ls2r+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Lui Sieh)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Followup on S.C.C
Message-ID: <wYjwH9y00jA14Jk71b@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 15 Jul 89 23:12:09 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Reply-To: ls2r+rbc@andrew.cmu.edu
Lines: 10
In addition to my introduction,
I would like to add that anyone on the mailing list may ask for any back
issues of SCC packages. These packages will be purged everyone month
however since we do not have that much memory :-).
All back issue requests can be made to either zhongguo-request directly
or to ls2r+rbc@andrew.cmu.edu
-Lui Sieh
From polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!rwright Sun Jul 16 17:54:19 PDT 1989
Article 20842 of soc.culture.china:
Path: polya!shelby!decwrl!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!rwright
>From: rwright@cup.portal.com (Robert T Wright)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Goddess of Democracy Project
Message-ID: <20495@cup.portal.com>
Date: 16 Jul 89 02:44:39 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 49
------------------------------------------------------------
STUDENTS FOR DEMOCRACY STATUE IN CHINA--Update June 15, 1989
------------------------------------------------------------
1. We installed a new phone. The number is 408-286-3220.
2. We have decided to focus on Alcatraz Island as the temporary
home for the Goddess of Democracy statue. Here is the plan:
a. By October 1 there will be a 30 foot prototype
on Alcatraz which will be visible from San Franciso. It
will serve as a reminder of the statue yet to come.
b. As money is raised, construction will proceed on the
150 foot statue. That is the same size as the
Statue of Liberty.
c. The completed statue will be on Alcatraz and it will
face China until the day arrives when conditions allow us to
dismantle it and deliver it Tiananmen Square.
d. Along with the statue, we will deliver the Hall of Democracy
exhibit which will include poems, drawings and a very long
list of the names of all of the contributors.
e. We are working on a color poster to sell which will illustrate
the view of the bay once the Goddess of Democracy is in place.
3. We are receiving important support and guidance from ARTS SUPPORT of
Hong Kong, INTERNATIONAL FRIENDS OF CHINA, CHINA SUPPORT NETWORK, and
several other organizations. Our group is becoming more of a coalition
than an association. This is how it should be. We welcome suggestions
and endorsements from all groups in support of the Chinese student
movement.
4. In addition to the support of other organizations, we welcome the
support of individuals who have the desire to contribute their time and
talents to this project.
5. You may write us at: STUDENTS FOR DEMOCRACY STATUE IN CHINA
179 South 21st Street
San Jose, California 95116
408-286-3220
email: rwright@cup.portal.com